Being the only, or one of the only, women in a room can be intimidating. But choosing the right company can help you not only survive within a male-dominated sector but thrive.
We sit down with Jess Madhavan, Engineering Manager at Checkatrade to share her own experiences of working both in the male-dominated tradesmen sector and the male-dominated tech world.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
hello everyone thank you for tuning in again I am Katie Bateman the content director at chican code and today we are
discussing how to excel in a male-dominated industry being the only or one of the only women in a room can
be intimidating but choosing the right company can help you to not only survive within a male-dominated sector but
Thrive today I’ve got the amazing Jess madhaven engineering manager at Checker
trade with me to share her own experiences of working both in a male-dominated Tradesman sector and the
male dominated Tech world as well as welcome Jess thank you so much for joining us hey everyone yeah thanks so
much for having me on the podcast today so I’m Jess I’m an engineering manager at tracker trade and I joined about four
to five months ago now so I’ve been here yeah for a while and it’s been a nice Journey so far and yeah how did you land
your role Jess because you’ve been there four to five months is it something that you working in Tech was that some thing
that you always knew you wanted to do or did you fall into Tech yeah
I know there’s so many different ways you can get into Tech now to be honest so I actually followed um quite a
traditional right route of going um into computer science at University I studied that for a few years and then in my
final year I did computer science combined with software engineering and so I started off my first throw as a
software engineer in a graduate role I did software engineering for a number of years
um I also did tech support for a bit while I was in uni and then after I sort
of had my time software engineering I think a few years into the role I realized that I enjoyed more of the team
leading and helping the teams with their process and efficiency and stuff like
that so I started to naturally help the team um do more and then I thought about oh
okay so could I potentially move into manage management and then I started exploring my opportunities into what an
end sharing manager is and what an engineering manager does um so yeah after that I moved into a
small startup I thought I would start small first as an engineering manager work with the smaller teams smaller
company and see how it goes and see if I actually like the role um yeah I really love being an
engineering manager to be honest and I think at that point I knew definitely what I wanted to do and where I wanted
to progress so then that led me um after spending about six or seven
months and a smaller company as an engineering manager I thought you know what I want to go back to a big company
and I and I want to do this role properly with you know bigger teams
bigger company more engineering managers around me so I started off my search on
LinkedIn mainly um just looking at engineering manager roles in general
um in in a lot of the bigger companies and then I was contacted by by someone at Checker tree so one of their internal
recruiters um Laura through Linkedin and then she had a conversation with me a few times
and we spoke she told me what it was like to work at chapter trade and about the teams and how everything was
structured the projects they were working on and I think at that point I was kind of sold and I was like okay you
know what I think this this might be the next role for me like I just love um the sound of the company how it was
structure the the growth that was going on at the moment in track trade it was all really exciting to me and I was like
okay well if I’m gonna progress this is going to be a great place to go into an engineering manager role and you know
start start my route there and so yeah that’s how I pretty much landed my role at Checker trade it was through Linkedin
through Laura and went through the interview process after that and then accepted an offer
amazing I’ve got so many questions I want to ask you after everything that you just said yes
there’s so many interesting things there that you that you worked at a startup which you I I did you really enjoy
working at startup that’s that’s such a different mindset to work in a startup and I understand when people want the
change and they want to go back to a bigger company but did you learn a lot there probably a lot faster than you’ve
learned yeah yeah I feel like I did yeah so obviously going into the startup I didn’t know what to expect because I’ve
I’ve always been in bigger companies my whole life like even before uni and some
of my retail jobs um all the way through to my tech jobs before that role always in bigger
companies so when I moved into the stuff I really didn’t know what to expect apart from you know I’ve heard a lot
about it being fast-paced and you know you’re working out 100 miles per hour so then when I got into this startup
um I was really surprised that I guess how tight-knit teamers and how well
everyone worked together and that was the really nice thing about it so I was really integrated with everyone there
um and you know you kind of know everyone all the way you know even in the different departments so I was in
like a fintech startup so you know I would know people from the tech department and in engineering as well as
people who were in their financial side um and everyone would just get along
really well and I think being in a startup like that you just get to talk to so many different people
um about so many different things and because it’s such a smaller tight-knit place you learn about different Focus
areas a lot easier whereas you know in a bigger company when you’re in engineering you’re just in one sector
and you kind of stick to that because the companies you know they’re just too huge to go off into attention and go and
learn about the other apartments or what other people are doing um as much but yeah I just learned so
much in the startup about what other areas of the company did and I guess how
we were working with them and for them as Engineers um as an em how my teams would help them
and I would have a lot more involvement with all the stakeholders there and and
yeah it was it was just super fast-paced and I really liked that and you know I would even have like chats of the CEO
there and all all of their the higher-ups and Leadership which is not something you often do in like a bigger
company you wouldn’t you know just talk to the CEO every day and things like that so it’s just I think the best thing
about being in the staff that was just being able to speak to all of those different people and understanding what
they’re doing and how I’m helping them as their engineering manager and how my teams are helping them as Engineers as
well so yeah that was really interesting yeah really set you up for for winter yeah back to a bigger company oh yeah
100 also interested in you said you took a traditional route into computer science how was that did you were there
other girls on your course where were you the only one what was your experience yeah so it was it was very
um I guess it was a lot different to what I expected I mean somewhat actually so I expected to go into
um a computer science course and there’d be not so many women on the course so actually in Sixth and west side bead I.T
for a bit and I was again the only girl in the class there was only five of us anyway but I was the only girl in the
class and then when I moved on to computer science and University there were you know maybe five or so
girls in my course you know in a room of 150 to 200 males which was just
absolutely it was scary as a as a woman going into that thinking like wow I’m
I’m so outnumbered at the moment like who am I going to make friends with like am I going to get along with
um all of the people here are we going to have similar mindsets or are we going to be completely different and it’s just
all those things that go on on your head when you enter into a big lecture hall
like that when you’re one of you know five women or so yeah yeah it’s quite a lot and it turns
a lot of um female students off as well unfortunately that they they don’t make it to the end um which is which is quite
a shame but you made it to the end you made it through um several companies and then to check a
trade um can you tell us now about your uh what is your day-to-day like at check a
child I’m assuming it is exceptionally busy yeah so that’s right um so my dad
is an engineering manager at the moment I manage two teams so my time is split between both teams really
um on a day-to-day I generally start off with the team ceremony so we’ll have
stand-ups in the morning and I’ll get updates from my teams and I’ll help them prioritize what they’re working on for
the day in terms of you know what projects we have upcoming and any deadlines we have anything we want to
release for the day and we’re always continuously working towards our goals so we work very agile and you know
anything can change day to day and that’s the something about working in a
company like Checker trade it’s so agile things are changing all the time so yeah that’s how I start my day
um I generally work quite closely with the project manager uh sorry product manager day-to-day product managers on
my teams um and we’ll discuss often what work is maybe upcoming in the next Sprint cycle
um what work needs to be prioritized at the moment and any future work that may be in the talk so a product manager
generally connects more with the stakeholders and the product side of the business and they’ll have all of the
um know about of you know upcoming projects and what’s going on
um information from stakeholders so I generally like to keep up to date with my PMS day-to-day to ensure you know I’m
on top of everything that we may be working on as an engineering team so that’s really really important to me
um other than that I have one to one sort of my Engineers quite regularly so
a one-to-one is where we do personal development so again that’s another really important thing to me
um is working closely with my Engineers to to understand how their how they’re
coping how they are checking in with Team Health checking in with their goals
and how they want to progress if there’s anything I can do to support them and things like that
um and then I also tend to look into metrics day to day quite a lot so we
have a lot of metrics and Engineering that we like to follow and I guess metrics are kind of what helps us
understand if we’re working the most efficiently um and if we can be I guess doing better
as a team or working faster and then that helps us figure out ways we can
improve as a team so often from the metrics I’ll sort of look at them and think about okay well if the metrics
have gone up to Sprint then great what have we done that’s worked better with Sprint and at the end of every Sprint
cycle we’ll have what’s called a retrospect of where we summarize okay let’s look at how we’ve done and you
know what we can improve on or what’s gone really well and again that’s where the metrics play a big part in ensuring
that we can continue to work well and you know improve ourselves as well so we’re always looking to continuously
improve as teams as well which is really nice um other than that I’ll generally think
with the other engineering managers say today so um I’ll work a lot with the engineering
managers in my in my pillar um we’ll kind of figure out if we have
any dependencies between our teams and if any projects overlap and stuff like that so I tend to have a lot of meetings
with the other teams or involve people from my team and the other engineering manager students to ensure we’re all on
track with you know whatever projects we have going on and if there’s anything we need to do to help each other so I think
one of the most important things is you know it’s not just about the teamwork but it’s about ensuring we’re helping
other teams as well and again that’s really a really important thing about being an engineering manager is talking
to the other engineering managers and understand what’s going on and how we can help each other
Etc and then last of all if I’m lucky enough then I’ll be interviewing new talent to come in as well and you know I
love doing interviews and I love meeting new people and helping check trade growth so yeah that’s pretty much pretty
much sums up what I tend to do day-to-day as you can tell
but yes you have quite a a very day and about yeah I think an engineering manager you you
think oh it’s going to be all technical it’s going to be highly technical lots of things you just just talked about
there you you even look back at you know different Sprints and you look at those metrics and you realize where where your
team did well or didn’t do well and also you just said you know communicating with other teams there are soft skills
they’re not you know oh yeah yeah think of yeah and I think that’s that’s the
important thing once you get to a role like engineering manager like you will rely on a lot of your technical skills
to just understand the going songs and you know how things are being built and how your team’s working but you start to
shift towards using your soft skills more to coordinate the teams and ensure
you’re delivering and the teams are working efficiently and you know you’ve got all the right people in place and
yeah it’s definitely a big shift moving from being an engineer to an engineering manager such a change yeah yeah and
before you knew all of that before you came in What attracted you to the tech sector but specifically checkatron
because that that’s a very male dominated yeah area What attracted you
there yes I think the main thing that attracted me to check a trade is when I
initially had my conversations with Laura um who was the talent acquisition
partner at Chaka trade um and she was telling about the growth of track or trade at the time so when I
was hired in Checker trade were actually going through a bit of a structural change where they were hiring a lot of
engineering managers and the heads of engineering so to me that really excited
me because men I would have the opportunity to integrate myself into a
new role and figure out you know how that role’s done as well as work with a
load of other new engineering managers who are coming in and I think for me going back into a bigger company it was
really important for me to have a lot of engineering managers around me who I could you know bounce
ideas off and work closely with um so yeah I think it’s mainly the the
growth the growth aspect that attracted me a lot and on top of that it was the
way the company was structured as well so in engineering
um we have quite a few pillars so we have I think four or five different pillars and pillars are basically
um areas of the website so we have different areas of the website for example
um the homeowner pillar Trace tiller I’m in the homeowner pillar So within the hormone of pillar we have a head of
engineering and each pillar has the head of engineering and then within artiller we have maybe four or five different
pods and each pod has an engineering manager and then obviously in the pods
you have engineers and product managers um and everyone else so yeah I really
liked the structure how I would have like a small close-knit team as well so we only have about four engineers in
each team so that’s why it’s quite manageable although I have two teams there’s four engineers in each team and
a PM in each team and I do have a direct line manager who’s only managing let’s
say maximum three or four other um Engineers so then I get the amount of
time that I need with my line manager to help me progress and move forward
because you know you can you can join a company where there’s a a line manager
but that line manager could be managing maybe 10 other managers and then you
don’t get the quality of time that you need to progress and for me progression
when joining company progression is huge progression is so important to me that I
need to be in a place where the company is growing as well as they can support my my growth and my progression and
where I want to be in the future as well just as well as I can support them for where they want to be so yeah that’s
that’s what really attracted me to check trade yeah it sounds like everybody’s very supported all along
um yeah uh the structure there so nobody’s really left yeah nobody to talk to
um just check a trade have an internal women’s Network at all yeah so um before I joined tracker trade
that was one of the questions I asked so there was there was quite a big internal network of women and I think at the time
I was interviewing they were in the middle of you know having some big events so they they did a really nice
big event for their International women’s day and and that that seemed like it turned out
really nice and then when I joined um we didn’t have a women in Tech Community
yet as such so that’s something that I came in and I’ve started up like a woman
in Tech Community just so we have a better Titanic community of the women in
engineering um and lately we decided to have some really meaningful meetings where we’ve
started to have some um you know some open conversations about what’s important to us as women in
engineering and how can we drive improvements um so you know it’s really nice being
able to meet as an internal community and I think the other day it was in a meeting and one of the ladies there said
like wow it’s so nice to be in a room of like so many women in checkout like this has never happened to me before so um
yeah it’s just starting off the smaller communities like that where you can get together as a group and you know talk
about about things with like-minded individuals who are in similar positions as you and you kind of you learn a lot
from each other you learn that for example maybe you’re not the only person around with some of the the problems you
face or the thoughts you have as women working in engineering and you can really relate to the others around you
and I think like having that support network around you can really help you Excel as well like you don’t feel alone
if you’ve got support around you and you’ve got other peers listening to you
and relating to you even so yeah that’s that’s been a really nice thing um that we’ve been doing recently yeah
there’s lovely we hear that often on this podcast just as people just finding
a group where where you can feel like it’s not just me I I don’t just feel that way and and you can find Solutions
as well to move forward if you know somebody might be feeling a certain way um it’s just you know just to be able to
share similar stories sometimes can really help with your mental health and work yeah yeah it does a lot yeah
on that note how uh does check trade work to retain its employees in an
inclusive and supportive environment do you think yeah so um groups would be one of them
yeah that’s a really good question um I I quite like the fact at the moment
we have a really good careers framework in place so something that we’ve really
put a line to work put a lot of work into recently is our careers Matrix and what that is is like a I guess it’s a
career path um detailing how you can get from you know a junior engineer for example all
the way to a CTO if you wanted to one day like it shows you a direct path of
where you are as an engineer and what the next levels are and it’s not just
that there’s one potential level above you like you could be a mid-level engineer and you could either say you
know what I want to continue being Technical and I want to become a senior engineer or you can decide at that point
away I think I like meeting teams more and I like management so then you could
potentially go into an associate engineering manager if you wanted to and it’s having that defined careers
framework so you know what the options are and the the opportunities that you
can then talk about with your line manager and I think it’s something that’s so important that everyone understands what the options are
available and there’s not just that only one option that okay you’re you’re a
mid-level engineer so you have to progress up to a senior engineer and then a principle or whatever it is
um yeah so that’s one thing and then on top people will only leave won’t they to find that path exactly just show them
yeah exactly and then on top of that and each of the I guess the different
positions in this careers Matrix um has a really set how I guess kind of
engineer leveling path where you can analyze what roles and responsibilities
and you you should be doing in that role and then I think it really really helps
me especially and helps me set goals for my teams as well so you can sort of look
through those roles and responsibilities and you know they’re in different areas so it’s not just looking at how good you
are technically but you can look at um how good you are technically your domain knowledge your communication your
leadership skills and there’s roles and responsibilities in each of those sections and you find that you know when
you when you analyze those separate sections you might find okay well you know I’m ticking all the green boxes and
the technical stores but actually as a senior engineer I need to take a few
more boxes in my um leadership section and then that’s where your manager comes in and can help
you understand which areas need a bit more work and then something we’re really good at doing is setting end of
year goals um so I track a trade we we pay like end of year bonuses and stuff and they’re
all based on people’s goals so you you know when we yeah yeah so it’s really it’s really motivational honesty to be
in a company like this where they care so much about your goals and what you’re
achieving that everyone has their team goals and their own set goals and then as you progress
with your goals and you discuss those if your line manager and you know you get to the end of the year and you’ve tipped
off your goals then that that means you’re obviously entitled to a really great bonus for achieving your goals and
moving up you know in your role incredible well I’m sold
but that’s great to hear because I think some some companies um you know they
that they claim that they’re invested sometimes or they might get told you know if you want to take a learning
course we’ve got some budget for that um but actually you know investing in setting goals at the beginning of
playing out if you reach them um I haven’t heard that one before because that would really encourage you
to reach the end of the year and feel like yeah you need something yeah yeah it motivates you hugely it helps you
understand how much value you’re adding and if everyone’s achieving their goals and that means the company is going to
do amazing as well hence you know the bonuses and the payout to the employees who work so hard to you know
um progress company as well yeah yeah what a great way to retain good talent
yeah that makes that easier on you as well if people are not um if there isn’t a high turnover on
your teams that’s easier as well that you can just retain that really good talent yeah yeah definitely yeah and I
think that’s the thing we do find a lot of Checker Traders there are many people who have been here for years and years
because there’s there’s that good um retention like people do want to stay
on and progress because people tend to move up into different roles and you see a lot of oh you hear a lot of stories
about progression at track and trade people have Maybe started um on the phones or on support somewhere
and then they have the opportunity to move up into different roles and I think again that just plays on having really
good managers as well who listens to you and understand what your interests are and where you want to be and you know
your aspirations and actually acting on that as well and helping you get there and that’s that’s so important as well
yeah yeah another topic of uh moving up through the ranks and change tends to
come from the top do you see female leaders at Checker trade driving change
yeah so I think um in general if I could trade I wouldn’t say it’s just female leaders but we have really really good
allies as well so change definitely comes from the top and in general female
smells we it’s it’s quite a Hot Topic that’s brought up in say management
meetings we have really good communities of managers and more recently we had um
well my head of engineering he actually brought up the topic of women in Tech and hiring them more Juniors and
supporting female talent in our managers meeting and I think for me seeing an
ally bring that up in a meeting you know in a room full of men as well that’s
that’s so aspiring to me and it makes me feel proud to be a woman at Checker
trade where I’ve got so many male allies who are supporting me and also want to support other women growing in the
company as well um and yeah this my head of engineering as well he’s he’s a really good Ally and
he tends to always ask for advice as well so he’s not just trying to make
change based on you know his his own actions but for example he was writing a
job description recently and he wanted to ensure that the words and it didn’t sound too now dominated and that he he
was you know using the right sentences that would attract both women and men so
he kind of posted that to the women in Tech Community that we have in check trade and said hey please you know does
anyone have some advice to me I’m going to post that the job advert um how do you think it sounds and I
think just the effort that goes into someone um or a man you know saying hey I’m
gonna post a job advert like can you check this over for me from a female perspective and see what you think I
think it means so much and it shows how much um people actually care about you know
doing the right thing to to create an inclusive environment as well so yeah we have a lot of change that comes from the
top and not just you know like I said off their own thoughts and actions but
from asking for advice and seeking you know constant
um thoughts of others around them and taking into our consideration as well
yes definitely and it’s something that we talk about on this podcast often that that has to trickle down from the top if
you don’t see that example from the top then you’ve got no hope throughout you
know your company culture um and that it makes such a difference just seeing uh leaders set that example
and of even reaching out and asking yeah you know just looking for that diversity of thought can I just pick your brains
on this yeah I wanted to ask you how to check a trade
provide you with opportunities to progress in your own career and yeah you mentioned a few already are there any
others there I mean you mentioned goals yeah one-to-ones of your manager it it
sounds like you’re not thrown into training yeah yeah I mean I guess aside from the
general career progression and the Frameworks Etc um it’s the allowing me to to do the
things I needed to progress my career as well so when I say that I mean there’s a lot of opportunities where I can be like
hey there’s a networking event going on you know I need to take the afternoon off so I can go to this networking event
or women attack Roundtable and I get the opportunity to take that time out and go
to these events and network and go to new Tarts go to hackathons we get a lot
of opportunities um as as Checker traders to go to events
and Network meet new people and I think that’s really that’s a really important
thing for me to progress my career is networking with others who are like-minded because often when you go to
these networking events I’m constantly learning like there’s some really really good conversations that go on that the
round tables I go to and you know the bigger networking events where you’re just learning and you can share your
experiences um as a manager on as an engineer or whatever role you do with the other
people in similar positions at those events and it’s it’s almost a safe space
where you can ask advice and see what other companies are doing so then you can maybe bring back some of those tips
and then share them with your company as well so I often go to like some of the
round tables I go to um and we have some really good conversations and then I’ll come back
and I’ll sort of post what I spoke about in my Round Table into the women in Tech Community for example if I went to a
woman in town round table and it just really helps you know with ideas and and
balancing those ideas off each other because it’s so easy when you’re in one company to do things in a particular
way or do things Fair Way and so I think yeah just one of the big other big things in terms of progressing my career
is just allowing me to do that networking and have those opportunities and seek advice externally as well as so
important yeah and we were lucky enough to have you at one of our hackathons recently and yeah and that was fantastic
what we loved about that was the the ladies that attended that their experience was so varied there was there
was ladies there that had never been to a hackathon and there were ladies there that had been quite experienced
um in in their roles as well and like yourself they they uh the experienced ladies had come to just meet new people
and learn something new and ladies that had never been to a hackathon before came to you know work on a first project
and and just meet new contacts and um it was such a great day as you said does that just hearing different
conversations from different people really you know enriches everybody and and what you take back and to to your
work at Checker Traders as well yeah definitely definitely um we are almost out of time and I’ve
got one last question for you do you have any advice for our listeners who might be thinking about getting into
Tech but they’re worried about starting a career within a male dominated field
yeah that’s that’s a really good question so I’ll just start off by saying you know it’s not as scary as you
think I know it sounds scary and it can be scary when you’re going into you know either a room or electrical or an office
where you’re a female and everyone else is a male but you have to understand I
think there there are so many allies now and there’s so many bigger networks who
support women in Tech and helping us progress and you know the right career paths so I would say be open to it and
understand that there are going to be so many allies around you although they’re not they may not be women so many male
allies have actually helped me progress and who knows some of the the best
places where I’ve been in progression um in terms of moving up to my roles or getting better at my roles have been
from male engineering managers or heads of Engineers so definitely
um don’t doubt being in a room full of males because they are some of our biggest allies as well which is amazing
yeah and the other thing I’ll say is join communities and networks inside and
outside of work so you know have a look around your workplace see if you’ve got
any networks um where there’s always networks where
people have similar interests and you know it doesn’t just have to be a woman and set network but it could be just
other networks for hobbies or um movies that you see or sports that
you do whatever it is because it’s really nice again going into um the workplace and just knowing that
you have a few different social groups to connect you about different things and that can really make your your you
feel more relaxed um at work and get to know more people and then the other thing I would say is
definitely attend women in Tech meetups and round tables outside of work as well
so I think the external events as I mentioned before they’re just as important because you get that different
perspective from people working in different companies who are you know in a similar position too although they’re
not in your company they may be in a similar position where they’re um one of few females in a very male
dominated office again and it’s nice to have those or to share those similar experiences and
um just again know that you’re not alone and you have a place where you can seek advice or whether you meet people
outside of your workplace as well um and then my final piece of advice I
would say definitely look into finding a mentor as well so there are so many different schemes these days or even
workplaces have schemes where you can look for a mentor who’s doesn’t have to
be someone who’s a um in a higher position than you it could be someone who maybe just has a bit more experience
in the workplace um a few more years or whatever it is and having a mentor can be that I guess
that really good relationship you can build a personal relationship where you
can understand um where you can go to fraud advice and for tips and talk about experiences and
it’s almost a safe place between you and one other person um it’s it’s really good as well to find
someone who’s maybe been through what you have so say if you’re joining as a graduate or someone who’s who’s done a
boot camp it’s nice to find someone who’s maybe been through that as well so and then they can offer their
experiences as well and they can understand you but definitely having a mentor is such an amazing thing and to
just be able to check in with a mentor once a week or so to talk about your experiences and how things are going and
it can really help you as well and I’ve heard before as well that doesn’t necessarily that that Mentor doesn’t
necessarily have to be within your company sometimes it’s beneficial to have one within your company and
somebody that’s completely removed from every all of the politics and everything that comes with your company because you
just learn different things from from each Mentor definitely yeah I definitely agree like there’s so many mentoring
schemes that are expanded as well that you can just find on LinkedIn or you can try and I know there’s a lot of people
in my network I see on LinkedIn so I even myself like I always say I’m open to people just messaging me and reaching
out and you know if you if people ever want to have a chat I know so many engineering managers just like myself
who would be more than happy to have a chat with um you know Junior Engineers are middle level
Engineers or whoever it is wanting to just seek a bit of advice about the industry and how they’re doing and how
like monthly sessions or catch-ups because it’s something we all look to
support those around us and who have maybe been through similar experience we have so yeah find a mentor whether it’s
on LinkedIn or for an external company and again you can find really good
mentors from just going to networking events and talking to people and then you realize oh okay well you know I
could potentially be talking to this person as a mentor ready and yeah just
keep meeting people and I think just just seek mentoring you need as well and
that will really help you Excel yeah well that is lovely advice to anyone
because we are already out of time so thank you Jess thank you so much for coming on and chatting with us today
you’ve been a Fountain of Knowledge and just sharing so much about your job but
I’m sure our ladies will find it really really really useful so thank you no problem it’s been really nice thanks for
having me and to everybody listen as always thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time
