Seeing is believing!
Studies have shown that having role models within STEM is an incredibly effective way to encourage women into the sector; inspire them to be more ambitious; and show them what is possible.
But with a lack of female representation in tech, where can women and girls find role models? And how do we encourage those already in the sector to share their stories?
To discuss this and more, we’re joined by Sue-Ellen Wright, Managing Director of Aerospace, Sopra Steria.
In a career spanning more than thirty years, Sue-Ellen has worked alongside international clients to deliver IT & BPO services to carry transformation programmes across several sectors. She has been with Sopra Steria for 6 years and became Managing Director of Aerospace Defence and Security in January 2020. She also plays a number of additional key roles across the organisation including being a keen supporter engaging in Sopra Steria’s Women in Leadership programme.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
hello everyone thank you for tuning in again I am Katie Bateman the content director at she can code and in today’s
episode we’re discussing the importance of having female role models now you
can’t be what you can’t see Studies have shown that having Role Models within stem is incredibly effective way to
encourage women into the sector Inspire them to be more ambitious and show them what is possible but with the lack of
female representation in Tech where can women and girls find role models and how do we encourage those already in the
sector to share their stories to delve into this further I have the amazing Sue Ellen Wright managing director of
Aerospace defense and National Security at sopristeria with me today thank you
so much for coming on board and having a chat with us today um can we kick off with a little bit about yourself and your background
please absolutely so you may have noticed my accent I grew up in Australia and left
school on a scholarship to the Australian Defense Force Academy so I joined the Royal Australian Air Force
and did my uni degree in officer training at the same time for the first 11 years of my career I was wearing a
uniform in a variety of fantastic roles all across Australia and I had a degree
in economics and management and information systems and had recently completed an MBA in strategy and program
management and just after that I was asked to go for an interview
um for a role with a global I.T company I wasn’t necessarily looking to get out of the Air Force but actually it was
good timing um and I got offered a role so actually that was an accidental but happy start
to a second career for me um since then I moved to the UK for a
short period but that was some 23 years ago and I’ve worked across public and
private sectors and three technology companies later I’m back working with defense policing and National Security
in this role which I absolutely love so that’s uh that’s my career so far
amazing it’s something that we I say this regularly on our podcast but we love to hear the roots into technology
they are all so different um which is always so encouraging to hear um you’re the first I’ve heard that as
coming from um Australia the Australian Air Force um is is a new one
um what’s there something about that how did that happen what encouraged you to go in that direction well I got offered
a scholarship and I’m the daughter of a coal miner and a school teacher so the first person in my family to go to
university so actually understanding what jobs and roles were out in the
market for somebody like me wasn’t something that I could take for granted and actually I knew my parents would
need to work really hard and for longer than they possibly wanted to if I chose to go to university so
um we moved I moved from New South Wales up to Queensland uh met a guy who was an
ex-army officer and he was saying to my parents actually you know she should look at going to advert it could be
great for her so I just uh went to some of the interviews kept getting through to the next stage the next stage and
then no one was more surprised for me I think when they uh made me an offer I remember them handed me a model aircraft
and asking me what are these things on the bottom of the aircraft and I’m thinking lights at what Katie there were
missiles but anyway these are things you can learn I think
what I had was lots of energy and enthusiasm a little bit of an aptitude
for leadership and that sort of those sorts of skills um a bit sporty so an all-round team
player um and actually I think because because they definitely teach you that to be a
leader you’ve first got to be a team member and a lot of that I think a lot
of candidates really thought that leadership was about doing it your way and ignoring everybody else so that kind
of authentic uh personality and Leadership probably helped me with a
mother who insisted I studied every evening which meant I had quite good academic credentials to go with it
anyway amazing well it sounds like that you were surrounded by Role Models
yourself and you mentioned your mother there it also sounds like I mean even to get into what you would call your first
career the Air Force somebody encouraged you to do that and and as you know we
mentioned in the intro there and the title of this you can’t be what you can’t see so I’m assuming you saw that
career and for you know what I’m gonna grab that with both hands yeah and I think it’s that combination of role
models in both my parents actually my father’s second career was as a sports coach so he was very very good at
coaching and mentoring um and being a role model for Young Junior people but actually the
sponsorship as well so this senior Army uh you know or ex-army but man who was
saying this is a good career for you and you know I I can sponsor that career for
you as well as be as a sponsor you know yeah so I think that the combination of
those two things was really powerful yes and I’m assuming it’s about when you move to your second career which was
into technology was was there someone there as well that kind of led the way
for you and what was it about that that kind of attracted you to technology I see you’re too perceptive for words so
absolutely there was I I really wasn’t intending to leave the Air Force I could have stayed there but the lady that
interviewed me was hugely inspirational she was fantastic she was younger than me she was and I was only 30. she was
super in fact I wasn’t even she was super Dynamic she was incredibly professional and capable but really
likable at the same time and I just thought actually I would love to work
for her with her I mean what a different Viewpoint and perspective I’d come from the military which was predominantly
male everybody in uniform and then I had this very young female Dynamic lady who
was interviewing me with huge amounts of flair and passion and so she was a huge
influence I I don’t think I would have left even if I were offered the role if she hadn’t have been the person that I
was interviewing with because I could see that is exactly somebody like me I could be her she could teach me you know
I’ve got a future so it was really really powerful yes so I I was going to
ask you next what are the benefits of having Role Models but actually you just that you saw somebody that you thought
you know what I could be that person it’s kind of just having that foresight isn’t it and thinking you know what what
you do looks great I want some of that I couldn’t agree more I think it’s absolutely so important because every
employer now understands what they should be picturing when we’re advertising but not every employer has
the ability to say and here is somebody that can walk the talk and absolutely show you what it can look like so we
make sure that we’ve got a gender balanced um interview panel in particular for
senior roles but for every role if we can so that people always get the opportunity to say there’s somebody like
me that I could aspire to be within the organization I think that’s really
really important and I know actually um I think it was Sean in one of your previous podcasts that was talking about
you know the reason why women in the minority in
the tech sector isn’t actually necessarily because it’s a hostile sector for females
we’re just not choosing Tech as a first career and so it makes it even more important for us to tap into people who
are looking for second careers and have got a broader understanding but we really need those women in particular
who are looking at those second careers to see other females who they think can
be role models for them so you know and especially because diversity in the sector is a challenge
right you know we can’t necessarily change those numbers overnight we know it might be 14 it might be 16 it might
be 21 depending on what subsector of Technology you’re looking at if you look in it females in technology in defense
and National Security it’s even smaller you know that is the 14 to 16 not the 21
kind of percent and we know there’s a resource in crisis at exactly the same time we can’t fill the roles that we’ve
already got so we absolutely have to make sure that we’re getting as many
phenomenal applicants all across the dni you know Network so not just females but
also life ethnic or you know other minority groups are applying
um and and I think there’s lots of Education within our own business that we need to do at the same time I’m
constantly saying to people this isn’t about replacing you this is about filling the empty seat next to you how
do we make sure you’ve got a phenomenal team supporting you or fantastic people
who appears to you so it isn’t about replacing you it’s it’s absolutely about
getting those new people in so what role models are critical I think for all of those reasons yes and I love the fact
that you said um as well Role Models at all levels because it’s they’re so important I think a lot of companies um
they go for you know let’s make sure we’ve got more women in leadership which is absolutely you know a crucial
um point but to have them at all levels I I think sometimes especially when you’re quite new in a career you can’t
always imagine yourself as the CIO or the CEO of the company you need to know
what’s the next level is there somebody there that you know as you as you said
you know looks like me reminds me of me and and I can think actually I could do that because of that lady that might be
you know in middle management or the next step um whereas sometimes it’s you might look at some somebody that’s you know sitting
up on the executive board and you think actually that’s really unattainable for me you know I need somebody at the next
level and so I completely agree with your all levels yeah yeah and we love
you know ambitious people coming into the organization but they also need help
and support to see how they’re going to get to the next step because what we also don’t want to do is have people try
to do those roles unsupported or too early because then they fail or they
leave or they don’t feel like they’re succeeding so they leave and you know we we definitely need those role models in
place and the coaches and mentors around them so that they try when it’s right and they get supported and then they
stay and they are successful yes because you know what you’re just saying that you you said earlier about
leadership styles as well and sometimes if you if you look to a leader and they
don’t they’re not really doing what you would do as a leader you can you can try
and emulate that and it’s not going to work and like you said you know it’s it’s finding your own leadership style
on whether or not you’re ready and how you’re going to approach it and being supported in that rather than just
thinking you know there’s there’s maybe um you know uh your middle management
might be all male it might be a very masculine style of leadership and you try and take that on board yourself
um and it’s not going to work you know you need to be your authentic self yeah absolutely because I’ve seen that we’ve
seen females in the business who have been more male than the males you know
and actually they’re very very challenging to work with or for you know even more challenging I think than than
some of the men in the industry for all the wrong reasons so actually I couldn’t
I couldn’t agree more we’ve got to be authentic um because that’s the way that we really I guess well we get the most out of
ourselves but then we can help others as well yes yes what about you know we’re
talking about um being and work and being in the workplace but do you think having more
um accessible female role models will help encourage more girls into stem you
know into stem subjects you know should we be starting earlier I absolutely do a
hundred percent and that’s backed up by lots of research isn’t it I mean it’s not and it’s not just true for women
either is it it’s all marginal or minority groups I guess fall into this category that what you were saying the
see it and be it kind of element because I don’t know if you um read it but back in 2017 Microsoft did a study on women
in stem subjects and found that girls are just as interested in stem subjects as boys are up until about the age of 16
I’ve got a 16 year old daughter it’s absolutely true I can see it um and then it starts to fall away and
two key drivers at the study uncovered that could keep them interested in stem were positive role models and the
confidence that they’d be treated equally to the men in the Indus history so exactly the things that we’re talking
about you know and so we know that the girls are turned off by this image of
going into stem subjects or going into technology is gaming shoot them games
you know sitting in a dark room wearing a hoodie in front of a screen all of that sort of thing and it’s you know
it’s a real shame because actually it’s not true with it I mean I think you had Jackie vores on to one of your podcasts
and I absolutely agree with what she’s saying there is a huge and ever expanding list of roles that females can
do in tech companies you know and we need them because we need them to help us address the female data Gap you know
the gender data Gap as well as to have hugely fulfilling careers so I think you
know we absolutely need to have more Role Models so that we keep the females in and and I think it’s really we all
need to be involved in providing those Role Models so it’s everything from the
government to the schools media Dr journalism you know publishing TV and
Cinema um because even now that we’re getting really great about acknowledging the critical roles that women have played in
technology through history you still you know you still don’t get enough of that
represented so and where we do like with um the story of Catherine Johnson and
hidden figures that’s really about how challenging it was and how they were undervalued and you know didn’t get
acknowledged rather than the star of the show you know goodness it took over 50 years to get a female doctor who why why
so actually if you don’t see it on TV sometimes you know how can you encourage
girls to think yep that’s the career for me if nobody’s coming to your school you don’t see it on TV what career are you
gonna pick yeah so your word accessible is so important because I think it needs to be accessible not just when they come
to a job interview because we’re losing uh candidates and phenomenal females at
all levels you know so I think we all need to be focused on what we can do and I think you know I know PWC did a
similar study to microsofts and found that only 22 percent of the respondents could actually name a famous woman in
technology gosh and there are hundreds of them aren’t there there are literally
hundreds of them we could look at some of the phenomenal candidates from the computer weekly top women in Tech you
know I think it was uh flavella I think her name was who had that fashion background who now runs her own creative
brand agency we’ve got Ellen Powell in the US who learned to code when she was 10 and is now the CEO of Reddit there
are literally hundreds of them we’ve got Dame Stephanie Shirley or Steve as we know who was part of the soccer Seria
group way way back when he was absolutely um pioneering in terms of getting females who’d had children back into
Tech in this whole organization of women who were coding and doing some phenomenal things like the uh black box
for the Concorde you know and you think back to post-war or you know during the war where we had all the phenomenal
females with the Enigma machines so there are absolutely examples that we could get really really excited about
but we’re just not good enough at celebrating those achievements of the amazing women in Tech and I would just
love to see us doing more on those lines yes I completely agree with everything
you just said that I think as well when you’re in the industry and you you know you’re involved in those women in Tech
groups and and you’re at a company that is actively encouraging diversity you might start to hear those things but I
moved out of um not out of the tech sector but I moved out of uh media and and moved over
to um uh to be a copywriter for a little while um and I was amazed actually being
outside of the women in Tech bubble that you know things haven’t changed that
much and people like you said you know what they can’t name female role models in Tech and when you start having
conversations outside of you know that that lovely diversity bubble that I work
in it’s like actually you know those conversations they’re still not there and there’s still so much that we need
to do um I think some some of that as well is you know I wanted to ask you a little bit about how do we encourage the women
already in the industry um that they’re Role Models because I think that’s also a problem isn’t it a
lot of ladies they don’t realize that they’ve got a great story to tell and I
have a lot of them that you know they’re uh we convince them to come on the podcast and then they have a fabulous
story and they didn’t even know and they you know that was like oh you know I actually had a nice time coming on here
you know sharing what I do I’m like yeah foreign yeah I I mean we have
um so something serious about poaching cafes and mentoring programs you know I
think we ask for individuals to volunteer for wise which is women in science and engineering in the UK
um work with stamette so speakers for schools is another program that we work with where you know which is just
phenomenal and you get a whole heap of young people who are saying oh my goodness I can’t do this and then we’ll
talk about our own stories and realize we do actually have stories exactly what you were saying so I think we’ve just
got to start doing it we we run a tell your story campaign across the business where we take vignettes we do lots
within uh International women’s day and get all different speakers across because I’m absolutely with you I had
the biggest imposter syndrome ever the first time I was asked to speak for international women’s day even within my
own company because I thought what angle do they want me to come from you know are they gonna try to get me to say my
career has been terrible because it hasn’t been terrible you know I haven’t had hideous males working with me but
actually where it’s been accelerated is where I have had a sponsor or an ally you know where I’ve made really good
decisions to change is where I have seen a fantastic role model so your story can
be really positive but still actually highlight that you know some of that was
luck let’s make sure that more fantastic Talent are lucky even if that’s how we
see it you know and we can all contribute to those things so yeah I yeah we’ve we’ve definitely got the
ability to to try and tell our story more yeah and you’re right having just even
sharing that you have had a great career and then it was very positive I think sometimes that can that can be a
misconception in Tech that you know there’s that um uh we had somebody on here saying that we have a branding
issue as as a sector and that technology can be considered um quite a boring
career to go into and even to sharing what your career is like and that it has
been a very positive um journey is so valuable um and you know if more people realize
that I love the fact that you mentioned speakers for schools I think um that’s a great initiative because sometimes you
think oh you know what I’d love to do something like that or I add something to my TV where I’m helping the younger
generation but where do I start you don’t just turn up at a school and say can I come give a speech and what on
Earth would I talk about whereas somebody you know like an initiative like speakers to the schools really
helps with that actually you know coming this is what you can do will um set you up with a school make those
connections for you um and it just means that all you’ve got to do is turn up and tell your story
yeah and there are loads of schools and Charities locally that could benefit from all of our skills we work quite
closely with synam and the Cheltenham Science Festival but there are just there are literally hundreds of them all
across the the country yes yes are there any um schemes or communities that you think
our listeners uh can join to share their stories and become role models we we mentioned their speakers for schools you
mentioned quite a few are there are there any others I think they’re that well they’re the ones we use I’m sure
there are a load of others but they’re the ones I know about so that wise stamets speakers for schools uh sign em
If you’re sort of based up in and around Cheltenham um I think there are I’m sure there are
hundreds of them organization as well I know uh
I went to one of their um they had a house um where where all the ladies where all
the young girls go and stay um over sort of their summer holiday and they invited me once to go and see the
girls and see what they were doing and I was so inspired by these young girls that were like come and come and see
what we’re doing and we’re creating our own business and that they they’re so inspiring
um the stimics uh yeah they’re a wonderful organization I’m very open to people
um helping and volunteering their time and you know if you want to be a role model um they’re they’re you know a great
organization to contact UM mentors are personal Role Models so
what’s your fault on mentoring well I think mentoring is also really
important um I absolutely agree it’s personal which means there’s no right or wrong
way to do it either which I think is really good sometimes I guess uh mentoring relationships develop
organically through the working relationships you’ve got but I think there’s absolutely nothing wrong with
seeking out a mentor um within your organization or external to it and in fact we absolutely do that
I’ve had several mentors um predominantly male but I have had a
female Mentor in the past you know I think uh you know what I really love is
I’ve currently got a reverse Mentor um which is great so she is a very cool
ambitious young female with a super bright future ahead of her and chatting
to her just does exactly what you said stomats did for you you know it reinvigorates me it just gets me all
excited again about the potential and the future and also allows me to check in on how I’m perceived to cross the
business because I think it’s hugely important as a senior female and a role model within the business that people
feel able to give me feedback you know that is honest and and that we’ve got I’ve got enough trusted relationships
with the key females across the business actually so they can say well and I think you did a bit of this you know you
did us a bit of a disservice in you know with what you said there or have you thought about talking about this so I
I’m really enjoying having a reverse Mentor at the minute um as well so I love that I I I haven’t heard that
term before but actually you’re just saying even for somebody to give you some feedback on how you’re perceived not
necessarily somebody that’s going to help you get to the the next part in your career but just to work on how
you’re perceived at this moment in time yes that’s incredible to to have you
know how did you find that how did you find that person did you approach them
or was it just kind of something that naturally evolved that you yeah so I asked I asked her we we had a um we’ve
got a women’s inclusive Network at work which I absolutely love I’m the exact sponsor of that
um we’ve got a fantastic chair on that and we get lots of people to come in and talk to the network about a whole host
of different things so we talk about menopause quite openly we talk about
um finances sometimes we talk about a whole host of different careers when uh
we first started with hybrid and remote working we had some of the BBC journalists come in and talk to us about
how you how you come across over video because we weren’t really used to doing
that either so got some tips about presenting most of which I’m probably ignoring today so you don’t like trying
to sit a bit Stiller and not you know nodding my head too much but I haven’t quite nailed that one yet
um but even really simple things like actually just put on some lipstick and then when you see yourself on screen you
look a bit brighter and better and that helps with your self-confidence so just things like that which I found really
really interesting but one of them was about coaching and mentoring and uh and they spoke about having a reverse mentor
and it really resonated with me I thought you can’t really sit and say you’re an authentic leader if you don’t
get that feedback or you don’t really understand so yeah so uh one of the
phenomenal Ladies as I said who’s not in my part of the business she’s in our government and transport business and I
just said actually I’d really love it if you could if you could help me with some
reverse mentoring and she is very ambitious but also very forthright so I knew I was asking somebody who had the
confidence to tell me if I was uh you know if there was negative feedback she’d have the confidence to tell me
yes I suppose it’s finding somebody um that’s going to be honest um and deliver it in a way also that you can
take in um as you said you know what that’s great advice so um having somebody in and just talking
about you know how you appear on video and and I remember when we started doing uh when I did interviews uh years ago we
um we were encouraged to uh get them on video and watch them back because you’re absolutely right if you’re not used to
watching yourself on video and how you um interviewed somebody or whatever it may be in your day job you don’t realize
that you fidget you might be tapping I was rocking on my heels and it’s not until you see that video back and you
think you know what I never realized how I look talking to people um so great great advice
um to have there so you mentioned that you ask somebody to be your Mentor um
how how do you find a mentor though you know perhaps if you haven’t got like a
mentoring program internally do you reach out to someone it’s it’s almost slightly rude isn’t it if you just met
somebody at a networking event and you’re both standing there with a drink having just met that’s kind of strange isn’t it yeah hi can you be my mentor so
you have to build a rapport a little bit yeah absolutely absolutely I I mean I
think my advice is have a think about what you want from a mentoring relationship so it’s not necessarily oh
my God that’s a phenomenal person I want them to be my mentor it’s actually sometimes I think it this is what I’m
really good at do I either want to get better at that or do I want to balance out with something I’m not so good at
and then have some of those thoughts and think well actually maybe that’s two different mentors one that can help me
work on this and someone who can help me work on that or is it that really what you want is a sponsor so somebody who’s
senior who can talk positively about you in the work contents context or in the
right environment moment because I think you know that’s the equivalent of the ah well we we’ve all been to this school
and he used to go to that school therefore that guy must be really really good that’s sponsoring you know in one
way in a negative way but actually we need to make sure that we’ve got those sponsors because every now and then
opportunities come up and if you’ve got a senior person on the board who says well actually I think that person’s
fantastic why don’t you consider them that’s also important so I think it’s that understanding what you want then
have a think about who can provide it and it’s unlikely to be someone you’ve just met because you won’t know how that
person could help you in your relationship um it could be someone you’ve developed a relationship with or doesn’t work in
your company absolutely and then I think it’s that have the courage to ask you know and I I mean I always get that oh I
know how busy you are I know what your diary is like but actually that one hour sometimes of mentoring somebody even
once a month or the half an hour having a coffee in a is often the highlight of my day or my week you know I really like
it so so I like the fact that people ask me could you be my mentor it’s very
flattering as well you know it makes you feel good about yourself and then even if we have a conversation and I say I
don’t necessarily think I’m the right Mentor for you but let me help you find one yeah
you just sit there as well you know what it might be more than one Mentor don’t expect to find everything you need in
one person it’s okay to have several and you’ll get different things from different conversations yeah and it and
and it’s also a point in time so actually you could have a mentor to get you through you know I don’t know
writing your strategy at work it doesn’t necessarily mean you then need that person throughout the next 12 months so
I think you know it’s okay to move on it’s okay to have short-term mentors or mentors for specific things I think
um so yeah I think all of those things are important have the courage to ask you know try out several different
mentors and you know see how you go yes yes I love that I’m we’re almost out of
time but I’ve got one last question which is very important because we’ve been talking about role models for this
episode who are your role models so I’ve got lots of them so I think I mentioned
Joanna who was this phenomenal young female who who I think really helped me make the transition from the military
into a civilian life but actually one of my great friends who I went to the
Defense Force Academy with is now the deputy chief of the Army in Australia and she is amazing so a peer and a role
model Natasha is just phenomenal um my parents both were Role Models
um both because of work ethic um but actually my father is a genuine coach and leader you know he’s a very
very kind inclusive person who’s all about you know making sure that you can
get the most out of yourself and he’s actually as proud of people that do better than him which I think is really
important you know I’d love one day for someone I’m mentoring to be my CEO you
know that would be fantastic it’s not a threat so I think all of those people um and then you know the late green is
just a phenomenal role model I think to every female out there about how to conduct yourself with real passion
dedication um dignity and professionalism so all of
those people who are vastly different in personalities have been a role model at
some point or continue to be really yes yes I can completely great I I I I love
everything that you said today Sue Ellen I completely agree with you on on every point and I’m so pleased that you come
on uh to chat with us today thank you so much for joining me to to share your story and chat about your insights it’s
been an absolute pleasure thank you thank you and to everybody listening thank you for joining us and we hope to
see you again next time
