You’ve made it – you’ve worked hard to achieve your spot in the tech industry, but what next? How can you advance and excel as a woman in tech?
In today’s Spilling the T, we sit down with Ayshea Robertson, People and Culture Director, Zen Internet, to take a look at her career, standing out from the crowd and tips and tricks to excel in the tech industry.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
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hello everyone thank you for tuning in again I am Katie batesman the content director at chican code and in today’s
episode we’re discussing tips and tricks to excel as a woman in Tech you’ve made
it you’ve worked hard to achieve your spot in the tech industry but what next how can you advance and Excel as a woman
in the tech sector thankfully I’ve got the wonderful Asia Robertson people and culture director at
Zen internet with me today to take a look at her career standing out from the crowd and tips and tricks to excel in
the tech industry welcome Aisha thank you for joining us thank you for having me Kelly
thank you or can we kick off the conversation today with a little bit of background about yourself please to set
the scene yes of course so um I actually started out my career in
finance um which is a little unusual I think for HR people and I fell into Finance
accidentally actually because um as a child I always wanted to be a
lawyer and I think that’s because I watched far too much La law as a teenager in the 80s
um and I really wanted to be a lawyer I thought it was a really cool job um but unfortunately I didn’t get the
grades required at a level um to be able to do the law degree at University so I decided I would take a
year out instead and do some work with every intention to go back to UNI and
every year later so I started off um doing some accounts in a small law
firm in the um town that I lived at um and I really enjoyed
um being independent getting money being able to go on holidays buy nice clothes
um and developing myself within actually a working role
so I thought oh do you know what I don’t want to go into full-time education again I’m just going to build my career
and develop um whilst I’m actually in a role so I
started to do um that I took some like accountant exams Etc and and worked my way up a
little bit into like a finance manager’s role and then I thought oh do you know
this is a bit dull I’m sick of spreadsheets and numbers
um I’m not it’s not really exciting me at all um so I landed a job that was a bit of a
dual HR and finance role and then I thought oh this people part is really
exciting I have it’s very interesting dealing with people and different
characters and you know how we can help them so I thought right okay I’m gonna
ditch the finance all together and I’m going to go into HR
so that’s exactly what I did I then um got my professional HR qualifications
and I did a master’s degree in HR whilst
I was working full-time as well which was quite uh quite an achievement at the time
um and then I started working up um the career ladder in various different jobs
and sectors so I moved around a little bit you know I’ve I’ve got experience in
multiple sectors um so I’ve been in the legal um sector for a couple of times now I’ve
been in financial services [Music] um manufacturing construction and obviously technology and telecoms
most recently um so I’ve been I’ve been here and there that all of my moves have been for
progression and opportunities and I found it really interesting actually moving around sectors and
getting to know about the challenges that the businesses face and you know
how how I could help with that um so yeah I’ve learned a lot along the way
as you can imagine and there have been various challenges uh particularly when
working in you know the more male dominated sectors like construction manufacturing and and Technology
um and it can be really challenging being the only female voice on a
leadership team uh you know you really have to work on your confidence
um and I’ve experienced imposter syndrome a number of times along the way as well and that’s one of the reasons
you know why I really care so passionately about um gender equity and getting more women
into these um unrepresented sectors like technology
and I guess some of the biggest learns I’ve had as well along the way is about
um taking ownership and responsibility for my own development and driving my
career forward myself because nobody else is going to do it um so you know I and also proactivity and
resilience have been key for me so if you get a knockback um you should definitely reflect and
learn from that but then move forward don’t let that hold you back I love the
facts as well that um you mentioned that you’ve moved around lots and lots of different sectors which is really nice
to hear because did you did you think that when when you were a student and you went into a first job did you maybe
a lot of people have the impression that you go into that job and that’s it you know you kind of you tend to stay in
that sector you have to pick your career quite early because it’s going to map out the rest of you know your your
career path um but actually you’re a perfect example of somebody that thought I’m going to try lots of different sectors
yeah and I didn’t go out with that intention I just I guess I found that
once I got and I think this is actually a reflection on my personality as well as
um I have this desire to constantly learn more things and and I love change as well and and I like to feel like I’m
constantly challenging myself and I’m I’m giving great value and then want to reach a certain level I think actually
I’ve plateaued or I’ve become a bit comfortable and I think right now is the
time for another change another opportunity challenge myself in a different sector
um so I’ve done that and it’s generally been um I guess a career progression move so
what I haven’t done is I haven’t thought I’m going to hang around here until there’s a
um a career progression move within this company I thought no it feels the time feels right for me now so I’m gonna look
for that opportunity elsewhere and I’ve just gone wherever it’s taken me and it’s been exciting
yes yeah and was there something when you did end up in the tech sector was
there something or someone that inspired you and you mentioned as a child you’d seen things on TV
um you you know you’d been watching things that inspired you to think you know I’d love to become a lawyer I’ve
heard that from a lot of young people you kind of I only spoke to a lady yesterday on our podcast you know you can’t be what you can’t see was was
there something about tech where you thought I’m gonna try that one next you mentioned uh enjoying the people part of
your job at one point yeah I mean the I’ll be honest the main
reason I joined um Zen was all about the company culture
um as opposed to the tech sector but what I found out retrospectively joining
in at the tech sector was how exciting it was and how fast-paced and you know all the
opportunities available and and also um you know the chance to actually go in
and make a difference and try and change things from A diversity perspective but um in truth the the reason I joined
Zen was purely for um the culture and that people first culture and I knew it
would be a fantastic place to work yes yeah it tends to be
um you gravitate towards certain companies don’t you um because you think that’s that’s going to be a great
environment for me um why do you think uh more women should
consider a career in technology you mentioned a few uh um benefits there
that the company that you work for but is there anything you think in particular that would um be quite attractive as a sector for
for women in Tech yeah I think I think there are loads of great reasons to join Tech as a woman
um you know it’s a really as I said before it’s a really exciting um and fast-paced sector you know
there’s lots of change happening and that makes it really really interesting
um and there are great roles available and loads of opportunity um
skills and Tech are always in high demand as well which means that there
are good salary packages um and the sector has really embraced
hybrid work in as well so that means there’s a lot of flexibility out there and particularly if you you know you’re
juggling Child Care Etc um and also in the tech sector at the
minute there is a huge focus on diversity so not just um gender Equity across all of the Spectrum which means
there’s lots more opportunities there and there’s lots more um work being done on
um improving benefits improving um packages and so you know I think it’s
a great time for people to be considering a career in Tech
yes definitely um definitely I think with all the changes that are happening in Tech as
well it’s it it can be um at the minute Tech is a bit tough in terms of what’s
happening but there is so much talent that is you know out there um that is is now available to to go to the companies
or the good companies that are going to snap up um that Talent what do you think our listeners can do to stand out from the
crowd you know from a HR side is it is there anything that you see and you think yes that’s somebody that I would
definitely remember um and how they can you know stand out from from everybody else
I think it’s really important to keep your knowledge current and also future
focused as well because you know in this fast-paced sector um it’s no good like harking back to the
past you’ve got to be able to demonstrate that you’re always Forward Thinking um so you obviously get that through
tended networks and Industry events Etc um but for me it is definitely about
um you know starting out quite showing all elements of your um your skill set so not just focus on the technology look
at every every other area as well you know what else can you bring to the organization do you find sometimes
when when you say that is it as if you you will talk to somebody and perhaps they don’t realize how valuable their
skills are especially women we’ve heard that a lot they tend to hide their light under a bushel and you think and
suddenly they come out with a project they’ve worked on he said why didn’t you say that previously you know it’s so
valuable what you just said that perhaps people don’t always realize um you know a hassle after their skills
are yeah definitely and you’ve got to remember this is your opportunity to
showcase everything um so think think of it broadly and
think of you know you’re telling a story about um you know your career and how you got to where you are and these are all the
wonderful skill sets that you’ve got and don’t be shy about um you know putting them forward and and
bragging about them that’s that’s the whole reason um that you’re in the interview you know you’ve got to demonstrate that
yes and when you get to that interview do you have any tips for that
interviewing you know interviewing Styles or I suppose if you’re graduate it takes you a little while to get into
the flow of you know how an interview should go it’s takes practice doesn’t it
yes it does it really does um for me one of the keys it’s all in
the prep you know um so do your research about the company
you know try and understand what the company is all about um if you can look on the website and
find out a bit more about the team you might be interested in um and think about the challenges that
that company might be facing so that when you’re in the interview you
can demonstrate that you actually care about the role a bit more um and remember again the point I made
before remember it’s not just about your technical skills so expand on that make sure you mention your other skills like
problem solving or collaboration or communication you know really take the
opportunity to showcase everything um and make sure you’ve prepared some
questions as well I also think it for me it really demonstrates
um how committed or how much somebody really wants a job when they’ve prepared some really good questions
in particular if they’re asking about the company so you know things like how would you describe your company culture
I love it when candidates ask me that because I think right okay they are a little bit interested
um and remember it’s a two-way process as well so you know make sure you ask
the questions that you want to know um to help you to make the decision as well
yes are you I love that because I tend to ask uh the person who’s interviewing
me what is it that you love about your job because normally it’s kind of their guard goes down and they think actually
I need to have a think about what I enjoy about my job and why I enjoy working here and you you’re right it is
a two-way street which I think for a lot of us is not something that that you think when when you first graduate
you’re thinking that I just really need a job and I need to get on a team and I need to get some experience and figure
out as you go through um those questions they they tend to change a little bit don’t they you’re
wondering whether or not you’re going to slot into that culture and do you think
there are certain areas or skills uh where being a woman offers an advantage do you think
well women make up a demographic that can offer a completely different set of
experiences so um of course I guess you know a variety of perspectives is a huge benefit
um to the business so for me this is this is about making sure that there is diversity of thought
and ideas um and that comes from having representation across all demographic
areas you know gender age ethnicity and so on I think think as well you mentioned something
um lovely earlier you said it’s not just about the tech skills which is is so
right and I think sometimes we go into an interview and we almost forget that you know we’re very much so this is
these are the qualifications um that I have under my belt and perhaps you know a lot of us forget to share
those soft skills and actually all the things that employers are looking for
um not just from women but sometimes the advantage there is as you said there’s a a unique set of skills that ladies will
bring and they really employers really want you to be yourself in that way you know they I’ve spoken to many ladies on
here who say they get into management roles and they strangely end up taking
on a very masculine style of leadership once they go into a management role and you know your employer is thinking no I
want you to be yourself because you bring diversity to the team and it’s you
know it’s far more than just your um technical qualifications in an interview isn’t it they want to hear all
of those other unique skills that you bring as a woman absolutely because it is all about
getting that kind of um diversity of thought and perspectives
um and I think you know you’re absolutely right about that I’ve seen that happen so often
um where women progress to leadership roles and feel like they need to change themselves to fit in with the other
males on the team um and it is the opposite that a company wants
um you know we want we want the difference of opinion and the different way of thinking
um and we want people to be authentic so um yeah I would definitely advise
um any of the listeners not to fall into that trap yes I love the picture said authentic
there that is exactly it isn’t it being your authentic self which isn’t always easy to do in the workplace I think it’s
easier when you’re in a good company that provides you with an environment where you feel safe to be your authentic
self and I suppose again that’s picking the correct culture really isn’t it and and you said you were attracted you know
to Zen internet because of that culture absolutely it is it is and um you know
there are a lot of great companies out there who do create a safe environment for for people and women to progress and
be themselves and people in general not just women um so yeah that’s that I mean that’s
another top tip really when you’re looking for um you know a company to to go to make
sure you do your research about the culture you know that should be one of your key questions I would I would
suggest um so that you can understand whether or not you’re going to have that help and support and that voice to be able to
develop in yourself yes I don’t you’re right that research
into the company because you don’t always get that from an initial screening interview for instance or even
when you go through to you know your first interview you might not always um actually uh grasp what that culture
is like and perhaps until you get into the job and he actually I wish I’d done some research and maybe this isn’t the
place for me and now you’re thinking do I jump ship or stay here for a year what do I know now yeah it’s a tough one how
do you think companies can support women in Tech you know are there any leadership programs or training budget
or anything like that yeah I mean there’s loads of ways and that companies can can support getting
women into Tech um initiatives such as uh step into Tech
program that we run at Zen is a great start you know our program is aimed at
women who are looking um to make their first move into a tech role uh it’s a
week-long development program it builds in technical skills and also soft skills like interview techniques Etc and what
we hope is that the women who are on the program feel really inspired to pursue a
career in Tech at the end and quite often we end up actually
employing several of the delegates at the end of the program as well so it it’s fantastic and that’s been a great
success so that’s I guess one example um
sorry to jump in I love it you said it’s a week’s program as well which is
perfect I’ve spoken to so many ladies who say I’d like to try a career in Tech
I’ve heard that you know it would be a great um way to go and then you start looking into what’s required and it is such a
commitment to having to take you know a 12-week boot camp that is very expensive
um and you think actually you know it’s quite a gamble am I going to get something out of this will I even enjoy it but a week’s program is perfect just
to see you know is it for me you can test whether or not they would make a great employee there’s not that
commitment there and you know it’s not like going back to school or committing a lot of money or time because for a lot
of people that’s that’s not doable so yeah absolutely and it’s free for you
know we we put that on for free it’s it’s kind of our bit to help get women
into the technology sector and obviously it also helps us because we get a lot of
talent at the end of it and we hope to you know inspire people so it that
program for us has been a fantastic success and we do run that regularly
um the other thing that we do really well and that other companies should definitely
um think about as we have Network support groups and so it’s then we have
a women in Tech Group which has over 50 members both women and men who all care
really passionately about gender equity and that group drives actions and
initiatives like our stack into Tech program and other things that we’ve set
up the like female mentoring schemes and female specific development you know
tackling um all sorts of areas we’ve revised our policies and proceeds features
um and as well as you know many other things so that has been really really
useful for us and it’s great that that includes male allies as well absolutely
need everybody involved in that conversation as you and you would use the word actions there rather than it
just being a conversation where everybody just gets together and talks around in circles action people yeah it
was really important for us to do that I was determined it wasn’t going to just be a talking shop and nothing happened
so we got our we’ve got our own Vision we’ve got our own objectives and I
report on those to the board um you know so it is about making a
difference for us yes we have the support um element of the group as well so you
know we can listen to people and any any barriers that they may feel are there and then we can tackle that but it’s
important that we actually make a difference and drive things forward um something else which I’m
we found really useful as well as four main Partnerships externally with local
schools and colleges to help shape the curriculum and to raise awareness of
like roles in Tech and we take some of our female techies out to these schools
to demonstrate to the to the girls um in school that um these roles are
accessible and they’re exciting Etc and we’ve set up various female work experience programs and mentorships for
girls interested in careers and Tech so that has been another huge success for us and something I think that many
companies could do yeah instead of having that shock when you leave school and you think oh this
is the world of work and you know this is what it’s going to be like this is what the roles
um actually look like day to day um yeah that’s a great initiative just kind of bridge that Gap
um okay okay sorry one of the key things for me is about um having buy-in at the top
um and because I’m a member of the executive team and I sit on the board diversity is owned and discussed at the
top and that means it’s driven across the business so for me that is another
thing that businesses should consider is you know that ownership from the top so that it does become a priority
yes definitely because you’re right if it doesn’t trickle down and people don’t see it put into action or even right
down to your line manager making a difference or seeing your line manager whether they’re male or female you know
leave at a certain time putting in that boundaries to go and pick up a child or whatever it may be and somebody needs to
be putting those things into action from the top so everybody can see it
um and and make sure that everybody follows suit as a culture and you’re absolutely right if that doesn’t trickle
down from the top um and you know the culture uh isn’t going to be and what people say is on
that boilerplate on their website
um what do you think uh is the best piece of advice you’ve been given when it comes to your career is there
anything that stands out for you uh yeah
um really early on in my career um somebody who said to me um you never stop learning you’ve got to embrace
development and don’t be afraid of change and those three areas are really
resonated with me and stuck with me throughout my career I’ve always applied
it across my career Journey as we were discussing earlier um I I do love to keep myself on my toes
and learn new things and I’m definitely not afraid of changing that for me has
really helped me to progress up the up the ladder in my career and to get to
where I am today I I right at the beginning of this as well you mentioned and taking
responsibility for your own Learning and Development which stuck with me and she
said it because yes it’s so important to realize that it’s it’s not just the company’s responsibility that you’re
getting and you know asking in your interview was is there any training programs and is there a budget for this
and that that’s absolutely fine but it’s also your responsibility to to grab
opportunities or to find Opportunities to to progress um and I think sometimes
um we forget that don’t we absolutely every now and then we need a little push
but um yeah it is our own responsibility and that is the way that we can move
forward yes yes um and in terms of you know Learning and
Development um that leads nicely on to uh my next question I wanted to ask uh
do you have any favorite resources that have helped you in your career Journey you know any sort of podcasts or books
or network that you tend to um uh look to every now and then
uh yeah I I use a lot of different things I like to attend um conferences
and various HR conferences um listen to podcasts and reading books
all of those um and there are so many great books that I could recommend but I guess one
of my favorites has to be the chimp Paradox by Steve Peters I’m not sure if
you’re familiar of that with that at all but I love that book I love the way it’s
written I’ve learned so much from the book um it’s all about how we behave
um in certain ways and how we can control that so um I would definitely recommend that
um and another key help for my development was attending a personal
leadership program which was run by the living leader and that was such a
fantastic program it really transformational to all aspects of my
life you know work and also personal um and it was on that that
um I I really got the idea of taking responsibility for things
um I also helped me tackle in my limited belief
um and you know things that were holding me back um and understanding the power of
appreciation and I mean it was just a fantastic course so I learned so much
from that as well amazing yeah yeah taking on board that
that are taking responsibility for your own personal development there I suppose as well if you’re
um you know we talk a lot on here about the power of networking but if you have an internal uh networks group there
that’s that’s a great place for people to meet other like-minded people isn’t it you know in terms of those that are
passionate about diversity and and moving things forward suppose it’s it’s important to pick a company that has
those things available as well isn’t it that you can talk to other people that might be feeling the same way as you for
instance you mentioned imposter syndrome just hearing somebody else feels exactly the same way and can be so helpful yeah
it’s been it’s been really helpful and having those networks internally for people
um you know being able to talk to other people in the same situation and get all of that advice and support I do
recommend um you know external networking as well though because it it is good to broaden
your horizons and broaden the the information
Etc that you can get by looking outside of your own organization um you know and mentors you know I’ve
had various mentors throughout my career and they’ve always been really useful as well and they’ve they’ve always been
outside of the organization of being in and therefore they’ve been able to provide a really sort of
um different perspective on the challenges that I’ve been facing because you can become a little insular if you’d
only talk to people within your own organization um so it’s quite enlightening sometimes
to have chats with people outside yes exactly just to hear you’re right
you kind of get into that little bubble of hearing certain things and it is eye-opening sometimes when when you hear
from other people and we’re almost out of time but I wanted to ask you you know as a leader in Tech and obviously you
have lots of experience in lots of different sectors and are there any final words of wisdom that you could
share with our listeners yeah I mean the biggest swing thing for me would be don’t let any limiting
beliefs that you may have about yourself stop you from achieving what you want
um you can do it believe in yourself take responsibility for achieving your goals and just go for it
yes on oh I love that yes limiting beliefs how many of us have those
I always told once it’s you should always talk to yourself as if you’re a friend your best friend because those
sometimes those conversations you know that you have with your friends you don’t have them with yourself so sometimes it’s like just just stopping
and thinking yeah would I would I say such things to a friend of mine what would I say I would probably be a little
bit more kind kinder to that person um and and and think you know actually I’d probably say just go for it but we
don’t know where to say that to ourselves so yeah lovely well thank you Aisha we are out
of time so thank you so much for joining us today and sharing um your insights it’s been a pleasure chatting with you
no problem it was a pleasure of mine too thank you and so everybody listening as always thank you for joining us and we
hope to see you again next time
