In this episode, we delve into the remarkable journey of Mags Allmark. Lead Delivery Manager at Zuhlke, who defied expectations and accelerated her career after a break.
After stepping away to raise her son and twins, Mags maintained her technical prowess through a personal tech blog, determined to stay relevant. Fueled by passion and a desire to be a role model for her daughter, Mags recognized the importance of women returning to the workforce for a balanced economy.
Join us as Mags shares her insights into the changing landscape for women re-entering the workforce and how she successfully climbed the ladder from a technical role to a delivery lead position. Overcoming initial hurdles like imposter syndrome during interviews, Mags landed a role at giffgaff, setting the stage for her remarkable ascent. Now, five years later, she proudly serves as a Lead Project Manager at Zuhlke, proving that with determination and strategic planning, a fulfilling career resurgence is not only possible but can surpass one’s expectations.
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Speaker 1:
Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in again. I am Kayleigh Batesman, the content director at she Can Code, and today we are discussing the inspiring journey of Mags Allmark, who I am lucky enough to have with me today, from taking a career break for family to becoming a lead delivery manager at Zulka. We’re going to hear all about her incredible career path today and everything that she has learned along the way. Welcome, mags. Thank you so much for joining us today, hi Kayleigh thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:
I’m really excited to be here today. Thank you for joining us Now. You’re a busy lady and we’d love to hear all about your career journey so far today. So can we start with a little bit of background about yourself, please? This is set the scene for our ladies.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, sure, I’m currently working as a lead delivery manager at Zulka. I’ve been here for over a year now. Prior to that, I worked at Gisga for over three years as an agile delivery lead. I joined Gisga following a career break where I took some time out to take care of my three young children, and prior to that I spent quite a number of years working as a software engineer, both here in the UK and in Ireland.
Speaker 1:
Lovely and so many of our ladies that we talked to. They fall into tech and I wanted to ask you a little bit about how did you end up in the tech industry and when you were younger, did you ever think that you would say I work in the tech industry. You know, what did you want to do when you were younger?
Speaker 2:
To be quite honest, I changed my mind quite a lot. My primary degree was in psychology, sociology, and then I did a postgrad in business and financial information systems and I really hooked on to programming there. I got really interested in building things, creating software, and I think I got very lucky in my career path. I started working at a smaller kind of pharmaceutical industry First building calibration software, and it was really interesting. But then that led me to my next career step, where I got into dotnet development and gradually rose through the ranks into a senior developer position in Newgov and it’s something that I really liked. I like the creative aspect of it. I like the fact that you can build something. I like it coming to life and seeing it and seeing people using it and also solving problems. I love the fact that you can build something that makes people’s lives easier. So, yeah, something I’ve always been passionate about.
Speaker 1:
I love the fact that you just said a couple of things that really resonate with our audience that you didn’t study computer science that we love to hear that. That you don’t have to study that to come into tech and you don’t have to do that immediately you need to go into a tech career. And also that you just said it was very creative, which is a lot of people don’t think of the tech industry as very creative. But actually that that drew you in and did you think it was going to be creative when you started, or was that surprised to you?
Speaker 2:
I guess it was, but it’s something that you find out as you get to know and understand the way behind what you’re doing, so you’re solving a problem for somebody and that that business aspect of it really drew me in and I guess I worked at places that were smaller as well and allowed me to actually get involved in those kind of conversations with key stakeholders and gave me that opportunity to really understand it, and it put a different kind of I guess aspect to it. It wasn’t just sitting there in front of a computer writing lines of code. So that was something that I really, really enjoyed and I guess it was something that during my career break I really managed to get more insights into and more involvement with through some of the things that I went on to do via my blog at the time.
Speaker 1:
So yes, your blog. I’m pleased you mentioned that because I knew that you started a blog when you went on your career break. What motivated you to keep your skills sharp and maintain a tech blog during that time? Not a lot of ladies think of doing that. What made you want to do that?
Speaker 2:
I guess I was motivated by several factors.
Speaker 2:
It was that passion that I had about technology, but also being conscious of how quickly things changed, and I really didn’t want to lose touch with that, and starting my blog happened quite organically, though.
Speaker 2:
It grew from being a parent blog to me finding a niche in apps and educational tech focused on children, and so I started working with app developers and got involved from the really early stages of app design and all the way through to testing and branching into the marketing side, representing them at conferences and doing things like blogger outreach. It was allowed me to gain a whole loose set of skills at the time, and the great thing was that I could involve my kids as well, because they were the target users and it just gave me that creative outlet that I needed during my break. It allowed me to continue to explore new concepts, experiment with ideas, and it kept me in touch with like-minded people and connected with the kind of world that I wanted to. I didn’t want to just leave it behind, and it was something that really helped keep me sane as well with three kids. Well, yeah, it was a very enjoyable kind of thing to do at the time.
Speaker 1:
Yes, yes, and you mentioned there, you have three children, and so I wanted to touch upon the challenge of balancing family and career. And how did, how were you influenced by the decision to rejoin the workforce and how did you navigate the challenges of balancing a family and a career?
Speaker 2:
Well, I’ve got three kids. I’ve got four. My oldest one is currently 14 and I’ve got 10-year-old twins, four-year-old twins, and there was a day when my daughter she was only about four at the time, I think she turned around to me and she said Mommy, when I grow up I want to be just like you and have babies. And it took me back a bit. I mean, it was lovely to hear that. You know, everybody wants to hear that your daughter wants to be like you.
Speaker 2:
But I started to recognise the fact that my actions were shaping her perception of what women can achieve and I was really conscious that I needed to and I really wanted to set that kind of positive example for her. You know, I’d always been the person that pushed myself really hard through school and uni and worked myself up to that kind of level of software engineer and I wanted her to know about that and I wanted her to have that same kind of goal and motivation as she grew up Along with the boys as well. I wanted the boys to recognise the importance of having a mother that was, you know, pushing to do that. And so, yeah, it was what my daughter had said at the time and I guess it was also I had come to a point where I was ready to return to work. I wanted to get back out there. My blog had taken me so far, but I still felt like I needed more. And, yeah, it was that initial inspiration and it was my passion, I guess as well and drive.
Speaker 1:
It’s interesting that where you said the push was from there, because usually when I asked ladies that question, they say, oh, you know, it was somebody in a previous company that I’d worked out or somebody was trying to encourage me to come back in, and yours came from inside your family unit and it was your daughter who said it to you and what a knock on effect that they had for you and that’s a lovely story to share with our ladies, that you can receive encouragement from absolutely anywhere in your life. And talking about re-entering the workplace, in your experience of that, what changes have you observed in the landscape for women re-entering the workforce and why do you think the push for this has faded somewhat?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I guess over the past few years there’s been that growing kind of emphasis on diversity and inclusion in hiring and practices in particular, and you see that some companies are really seeking to tap into things such as women returning to work, and I think there was a time where that was happening quite a lot. I’m not sure if that’s starting to fade. Maybe it’s just one of those things that happens. Maybe it’s complacency or a sense of achievement that people have already achieved, that companies have achieved that gender equality in the workplace. There could be a variety of factors, but I have noticed that there’s less return to work schemes now than there was when I initially started working. So, yeah, I feel maybe it’s society looking at it as well there’s a bigger shift in terms of all areas of diversity.
Speaker 1:
Definitely yeah, and there are some companies as well that have really got it right in terms of their strategy and how they’re approaching that and the people that they’re working with. So you are right, there has been a shift. I think previously as well, the conversation was very much around a nice to have diversity was a nice job, and then it shifted, thankfully, into more of a. There were several reports about how it can increase your bottom line and suddenly people, companies, that is pricked up and they thought actually it’s not a nice to have. We really do need to invest in diversity amongst our workforce. And you are right, there have been lots of great steps in that direction and, thankfully, great companies are still doing really good work in that area. So I agree there.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think Salka is one of those companies where I’m really proud to work for Salka. If we look at the leadership in the UK, it’s 50% women and overall in the UK, 37% of employees are women, so it’s a great place to work in terms of that, and that’s incredibly high number for some companies.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and I’m assuming, as we’re working within that culture, it’s not something that happens overnight, surely. It’s built into the DNA and you see it every day and it’s just a feeling when you come to work, that you can tell that you work within a great culture, rather than just thinking you know what we’re going to go out and we’re going to increase our diversity numbers. I’m going to have 50% women. That doesn’t happen overnight.
Speaker 2:
Definitely definitely. You know it needs to be done for the right reasons, not just a vanity metric, as it were. So yeah, probably a great.
Speaker 1:
You transitioned from a technical role to a delivery lead, and that is quite a significant shift. So what inspired you to take this step and how did you prepare for it during your career break?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I guess just in the last role I had prior to going on maternity leave, I was working as a senior software engineer and scrum master and at the time I was responsible for driving that kind of transformation towards agile practices within that organization. So I guess my journey had started already at that point. The challenge for me that I found was coming back and picking up where I had left off. For picking it up and fully focusing on delivery. I knew I enjoyed it and I wanted to go back and do that, and it was focusing on that. Looking back over it during my career break, I think I reflected on the things that I was strong at and that, along with my interests and aspirations, I recognized that my technical background would help me and then I also had that kind of leadership quality myself and that passion for delivery. So it was all of those things together. I found they inspired me to kind of explore those opportunities, to get back into that role and solely focus on a delivery role as opposed to trying to get back into the engineering side of things as well.
Speaker 2:
And I did a number of things to prepare for this. I knew I needed to get myself sharp when I came to certifications, I did some certifications. During the time I took online courses, I read as many books as I could and things like Medium is fantastic checking out blogs and so on and just really keeping an eye on the emerging technologies and any new kind of innovative approaches to delivery and so on. So it was that combination. I guess I was combination of my own self-awareness, what I liked, what I was good at, my professional development, which included what I had done while I was on career break, and also that passion for leadership I wanted to lead and it was just being proactive really during the time and being able to position myself so that I was confident enough to get back in and embark on that kind of next chapter. Really.
Speaker 1:
Yes, because you mentioned their certifications and everything you needed in terms of training, and that’s obviously an incredibly important part of coming back in for a new role. What about the other side of things? So you mentioned there a little bit about the confidence side, and when you come back from a career break, obviously interviewing must be incredibly daunting. How did you overcome imposter syndrome and successfully land your role at GIFGAP?
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 1:
How did you feel going into that interview?
Speaker 2:
It was definitely interviewing after career break was daunting. I think it was that combination of self-awareness and preparation and resilience. I accepted that imposter syndrome is something that’s common, and I had to accept the fact that I was stepping out of my comfort zone, and that helped me put an introspective, really, and I just needed to give myself almost some coaching before I went into these interviews and so that I had the confidence that I needed. What I found really helped me, though, was to focus on highlighting my strengths and skills and the experiences that I had during the interview, looking back on my achievements, both during my previous work and things that I could call out of my time during my career break, and just having those kind of concrete examples ready so that I could demonstrate it to potential employers that I did have the skills needed, and I also got a lot of support from my husband in particular, and my family and friends, and knowing you had people behind you believing in your abilities that was one thing. You know that I needed that, and you know, I think, once I got that first interview out of the way, I actually found I started to enjoy them. It was really nice to be back talking about things that I was passionate about with these prospective employers and you know it was a two-way conversation. I was learning about their needs and expectations and I felt that I could add value and was really excited for the next kind of stage in it.
Speaker 2:
And I think things, other things that helped me was just that preparation really researching the company, you know, familiarising yourself with culture and work, looking up people on LinkedIn, knowing that you’ve got the information that you need, and I practised and practised lots of the common interview questions All of these things made me feel a lot more confident and equipped to head into the interviews and really articulate my skills and the experiences that I’ve had in the past. You know effectively so it was. You know that I think it was also really important to be resilient when it came to the knockbacks, you know, learning from them, not letting them get you down, knowing that feedback that you get from following an interview would really help you in the next one. And you know I enjoyed it. To be honest, I, you know, got to a point where it became really enjoyable.
Speaker 1:
I mean that’s brilliant to hear. It’s also brilliant to hear that you said it takes practice. I think a lot of that’s something we discussed on this podcast before as well that a lot of ladies think, especially graduates, you go into your first interview and you’re going to be great, or you. You know, at least you think that you’re going to nail it in your first interview.
Speaker 1:
But you quickly realise it does take practice and you have to warm up a little bit sometimes and I remember being a graduate and thinking I wish somebody had told me my first interview that I wouldn’t feel actually very comfortable until at least my fourth you need that, yeah, yeah, definitely, and I think it is that recognising it’s a two-way thing.
Speaker 2:
You know, the person who’s interviewing you wants you to do well just as much as you want yourself one to do well.
Speaker 1:
Well, I mean that kind of reminds us yes, exactly, and Ceciline’s that and as well. Knowing that you had those new skills and thinking as well, do I want to be part of this company instead of always thinking you know you are correcting it. Is it two-way street? Do I want to be part of that company and do they want me to come and join their company? I had a curiosity Did you also feel that, becoming a parent, you learned a lot of skills that you hadn’t previously had before? So going into an interview, did that all seem? You know you could just yep I’m a parent now and I’ve learned this, this and this.
Speaker 2:
Absolutely. I mean you’re going to have your hardest kind of challenges and they call the. Management is probably one of those skills that you pick up through parenting. And yeah, I mean it was especially with twins. You know it was a lot of juggling and so on. So, yeah, I learned to laugh from the parents inside. That’s very useful.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, new skills. I had somebody tell me the other day that they are really good at negotiating. Now they can. They could be chief negotiator because sometimes having to talk to children and try and convince them to do things that you need to get them to do, they picked up so many skills as parents which they didn’t quite realise until they went back into the workplace and then realise how organised it become, for instance. So, yeah, it can be daunting obviously going back, but at least she was on through all of those new skills as well.
Speaker 1:
Definitely totally agree with that one yeah, so now you are lead delivery manager at Zulka. How do you see the importance of diverse perspectives in leadership roles and what advice do you have for others aspiring to take on leadership positions in the tech industry?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think it’s really, really important to have that kind of diverse perspective, especially in the tech industry. You know, having people that can bring that richness of ideas and experiences and viewpoints to the table is really invaluable and, you know, it helps when it comes to problem solving and you can really see the benefits of it for both teams and organisations. And I think having diverse leadership, it promotes inclusivity, it creates that kind of supportive environment where you feel that it doesn’t matter what background you’re, from your opinions, you feel valued, respected and empowered to contribute and ultimately be your best self and you know nobody’s hiding away. It also really really enhances, I think, employee engagement and morale. You know it’s that kind of you can see it when you look at retention in companies and so on that are diverse. It does have a lot of benefits from that point of view and keeps organisations competitive as well. You know, because you’ve got a lot more opinions to draw from.
Speaker 1:
You just mentioned retention there. This was a conversation we had recently as a team which you can code, because a lot of our employers, the partners that we work with, a lot of their employees, tell us that they try not to look elsewhere when they want another role. They go to their employer and say you know what I’m thinking about a new opportunity, Can I retrain and go to a different department? And the really good employers they help that employee to move around that company. Because you are right, some companies, people just want to stay at them instead of leaving and they’re just looking for a new opportunity within that company. Because when you do find a really good company culture, it’s just worth staying there and seeing what other opportunities you can find. Because, you’re right, it needs to come from the top down. Because if you don’t have that example, it can be quite difficult for that to resonate with the rest of the workforce, surely. But if you see that daily within your company, then it must be quite easy for you.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and I think it’s really good because it helps people develop the kind of skills that they need later on to grow into leadership roles. It’s that giving opportunities to expand your skill set, looking at going, say, for an engineer, to go beyond maybe technical expertise, going into roles where you can get that kind of strategic thinking or brought up on communication skills, so that you can have a chance to inspire people, motivate people, and having a company that gives you that opportunity to broaden yourself and grow. It’s something that’s really, really important and, like you said, it comes from the top. There has to be a willingness to allow people to do that.
Speaker 1:
Yes, yes, definitely. And you mentioned there about diversity of ideas. I suppose as well that comes down to sometimes there are challenges and sometimes things go wrong sometimes, and sometimes, when you have that diversity on that team, to have the people that have different backgrounds and different ideas to be able to step in and to deal with that challenge, that just helps hugely when a project maybe hasn’t gone to plan for everybody to step in and help each other rather than everybody thinking the same thing, I think.
Speaker 1:
how are we going to get out of this situation, so even that mentally at work, just how to deal with problems and different perspectives? That can make life a lot easier as well, can’t it?
Speaker 2:
Totally agree. It’s that, like you know, bustering almost that growth mindset, embracing any challenges, things that go wrong, and seeking those opportunities for growth and development. And I think that when things go wrong, when you have failures, that’s when you grow the most and that’s when you see really teams growing stronger and stronger and groups of people collaborating and getting to the high performing goal that you want to get to. And I do think one of the things, one of the most effective things that you can do and learn is to kind of cultivate your emotional intelligence, that ability to have active listening, pick up on things and you know, just to understand how other people are feeling. You know that real, that empathy to grow. That is something that is really keen to key to actually, you know, growing you as a person as well and setting you up for leadership.
Speaker 1:
Yes, yes, definitely. Yes, I love that Sessing your leadership. You’re right, because good teams, diverse teams they do grow from each other, and when there are problems, good teams turn inwards, help each other. They listen to each other. You’re absolutely right, and all of that, though, comes down to again whether or not you land yourself in a great culture that gives you the space to do that, for you to then grow and move on to your next leadership position. You have had a successful career journey, so, looking back on that journey, are there any key lessons or pieces of advice that you would offer to individuals, especially women, who are contemplating returning to the workforce after a career break?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think there’s a couple of things I think of. First off, it’s believing yourself. Don’t forget that you’ve got valuable skills. Maybe you’ve taken some time out, but just recognize that you have those skills and the experience that you had during your time out have probably helped you. You’ve got a trust in that and really that will give you the confidence that you need to embark on returning.
Speaker 2:
I think it’s really important as well to try and stay connected. Stay connected via LinkedIn or with former colleagues. Find mentors that can help you, that can guide you and encourage you when you want to return to the workforce, and it also keeps learning. Keep your hand in, as it were. Just look out for ways that you can continuously learn and develop, whether that’s via reading stuff online or taking courses or attending meetups. I think that really helps you remain relevant and put you in a good place when you want to get back into the job market. I think it’s important as well to be flexible, so consider opportunities that you may not have done so before. Maybe it’s things that don’t necessarily align with your skills, but it’s something that you can grow into. I think that’s important. Maybe you want to return to work, but you’re not ready to return full-time. So consider do you want to do a part-time? Is there opportunities to do a remote return to work? Would that make it easier for you? So I think you’ve just got to find your right way to transition properly back in and just prepare, really prepare.
Speaker 2:
Invest your time and effort into returning. I think you’ve got to take time to review your CV. Start with your CV, polish it, tailor it to where you want to go. What’s your goal? What career do you want to try and target? I think you’ve got to take a step back and look okay, where are the skills that I have now that are relevant to that? What kind of stuff that have I done during my career break that is now relevant? And don’t try and hide a career break either. If you take time out to look after children, I don’t think this you know. You don’t need to hide it, it’s okay. People are actually, I found during interviews we’re really interested to hear about what I had done and I think it really helped me. So that’s one thing that I would definitely say.
Speaker 2:
And then, finally, resilience. You’ve got to adopt that kind of. You’ve got to expect there’ll be challenges, you’ll have setbacks, you’ll have knockbacks, but that’s okay. You know, it’s something that you can learn from. Don’t let it get you down. You’ll get there and you know, just keep picking yourself up and growing, and I think that’s something that’s really, really important. Those are probably the main things when you’re, when you’re thinking about returning to work, and then I guess one thing that I would also say is, when you do get back there and you’re in that position, you know, pay it forward, think about the people you can help, and I’ve done some mentoring in the past, which I really enjoyed and, you know, helped people like me. Help some students who are grads about to return to start work, and you can really help people gain that confidence. So it’s something that I would also consider doing.
Speaker 1:
Brilliant advice and the fact that you said networking and then paying it forward and just sharing those stories, which is something, obviously, that we advocate for so much at she Can Code, just connecting with other people that are feeling the same way, that it’s okay that you’re feeling that way and to share your experiences, because did you have a little moment where you thought, oh gosh, you know it’s just me and I’m feeling a little bit on my own, I don’t know where to start? And if somebody had reached out to you, like you now reach out to other people, I mean, would that have really given you a nice nudge to think maybe I should have done this sooner? Or, you know, it would have just really picked up your confidence. How were you feeling at the time?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think I went through a mix of emotions, you know. It was like my decision to go back, I was like, right, I can do this. And I was all gong ho, and, and then you get your first interview and it’s like, oh my God, am I ready for this? And, and you know you do that, get that out of the way. And suddenly you start to get to enjoy it and you know it’s that balance of trying to accept it and know that this is the right thing.
Speaker 2:
And, of course, then there’s when you would do land that job. It’s actually starting the job and I felt like I had so much to prove because, you know, I wanted to make sure that I could hit the ground running. And, and I think you know that’s the, that’s the thing that really pushed me when I, when I got back to work, I did manage to hit the ground running, and it’s something that you know, I was proud of at the time and and I still am. And then, something that was very important to me to be able to do, because I didn’t want to leave down these people who had, you know, taken a chance on me and hired me. I wanted to prove that, yeah, I was worth hiring. So yeah, it was.
Speaker 1:
It was a a quite a roller coaster at the time, but one of the many pluses, though, of hiring somebody that is returning to the workplace, because you just nailed it in what you said there that you you wanted to work harder than you’d ever worked before, because you wanted to prove that you could do it, and that you know surely as well. That makes you such a loyal employee because of coming back from a career break and just a brilliant example of why more companies should hire people that have been on a career break.
Speaker 2:
Definitely. I think you know people shouldn’t feel that just because they’ve taken time out, that they’ve lost skills. You know, whatever the way I see it is, you never really lose skills. You gain different ones and you can brush off and pick up on the ones that you had before and you’re growing as a person and at the end of the day, you know, I think it’s it’s coming back and finding something that works for you. As much as you know you working for a company, it’s a two way thing.
Speaker 1:
Yes, definitely we’re max, we are already out of time and I could keep talking to you about this all afternoon, but thank you for sharing your story of resilience and we’re going to keep hearing about your story in the future, hopefully as well as it continues. So thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today. It’s been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 2:
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I’ve really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1:
Thank you and to everybody listening, as always, thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
