Both mentorship and sponsorship can be valuable in different ways, complementing each other for a well-rounded professional development experience – but what if you’re being over-mentored and under-sponsored as a woman in tech?
Winter Baker, Principal Consultant, Florida at Capco, Emma Cudal, Principal Consultant UK at Capco and Varenya Prasad, Principal Consultant, Toronto at Capco sit down with us to share their own experiences of both mentorship and sponsorship and why it’s important to have a good balance throughout your career.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
hello everyone thank you for tuning in again I am Kelly Benjamin the content director at chican code and today we are
asking are women over mentored and under-sponsored and why we need a balance of both both mentorship and
sponsorship can be valuable in different ways complementing each other for a well-rounded professional development
experience but what if you are being over mentored and under sponsored as a woman in Tech now I’ve got three amazing
guests from Capco with me today who are all principal Consultants at Capcom I’ve got winter Baker Emma kudow and Varina
Prasad all from Capco and all here to share their own experiences of both mentorship and sponsorship and why it’s
important to have a good balance throughout your career welcome everyone thank you so much for joining me today I
mean great to see you good thank you for having us thank you for taking the time out to have a chat
um which she can go today and we’re going to get started with a bit of background and set the scene about each
of you and so can we start with um Emma let’s start with yourself please
yep so um I am a principal consultant in capco’s data practice in the UK So based
in London um and I’ve spent the last few years kind of working with clients
um across data and Technology spaces kind of helping them design and Implement data strategies and data
management Frameworks um this is a little bit about myself I kind of started off my career in
financial services but more in like kind of investment banking space so after doing my degree in economics I kind of
moved into middle office and back office functions of investment Banks and it was actually through working with some Capco
teams in those banks that I kind of found out a bit more about about consultancy so I moved into Capco
um not originally work in Dayton Tech purely kind of business Consulting it was actually about seven years ago that
I started on a data management office project setting up for a kind of a
global bank that I got involved in pretty much not really look back sense
I’ve redefined myself kind of a female lead in the data strategy and advisory space and and help clients with a range
of projects across kind of data lineage controls data quality Frameworks setting
up Toms and data governance and policy amazing it sounds like you have a very
busy day and we’re going to go into that in in a little bit a little bit more in a second
um winter yourself hello I am a feminine leaning genderqueer individual I use
they them pronouns and pretty much throughout my childhood I was a little
bit too smart for my own good I read everything and instantly decided that that is what I wanted to do with my life
um until uh one summer my last year of high school I got really bored my
brother had just moved out and enlisted in the army and my dad had just wrapped up his master’s program in software
development and bored with nothing to do that summer I picked up
application-based object-oriented programming for a modern interface with Visual Basic 2000.
as as you do um and it’s the first time I ever really heard of the concept of coding and
software development and frankly it was love at first I I immediately pivoted my
life goals there started looking for a uh University that had really high
computer science programs got my bachelor’s degree and um been doing this ever since
um into Consulting I actually initially landed in Consulting under
um some DOD U.S Department of Defense subcontractors so that’s kind of a con
pseudo consultancy um and I kind of liked the model and I’ve just been in Consulting for
software development ever since amazing I see it’s something that we’d love to hear on on here all of your
different stories and all of the different ways that people make it into Tech so um we love that
um bring you yourself have you read that book
as I was in your own book Emma wanted to speak um there’s a lot of commonality I could
find from both of them in terms of their own experiences um so I actually got into Tech in I’d
say School itself like high school um so developing and program so starting then
I do have again a bachelor’s and a masters in um in software or computer science and
then like stabilization database management um actually worked in the same gig
um a couple like a few years ago now at this point but basically I think um my route into
Consulting was sort of by fluke um so the quintessential software development
path where you know you always imagine yourself being a software developer during one of the main processes um that
was an initial understanding of what you know being in Tech meant um and then through Consulting I’ve sort
of understood that that’s not just the only way to be you know participating in this space and that’s not the only role
that is available for people to play um and so again for myself
um data was always something that I played around with before um and then through Consulting was able
to figure out what about it made sense to me and what parts of it I wanted to play with um so that’s been a good journey so far
at least um that way in terms of what technology has meant for me amazing and
you started um well a quite a traditional Computer Science Background at school what was that like at school
for you was it was it one of those stories where you you know was only yourself and maybe one other guy in the
class or what what was that like yeah it was myself
um and two other girls in the class I was the only major um while the other girl thankfully was
that she was there she was a minor yes it was very um very you know male
dominated industry for sure and classrooms are always um I was always the sort of the odd child out no matter what I did yeah yeah
luckily females are making it through um to the tech industry though so yeah
yeah but to hear that often though that you’re normally outnumbered on computer science courses
um definitely there was a change I think in terms of um even those numbers sort of started to
change from undergrad to ground but still the you know the majority was still it was still a heavily meal
dominated classroom yeah yeah I’m we have uh lots to talk about today and
we’re going to talk a little bit about sponsorship and mentorship um so we’re gonna kick off with um just
kind of the difference between um sponsorship and mentorship for any of our listeners who are um tuning in and
thinking on Earth is the difference between the two anyway um Emma can we kick off with you can you
maybe give us a brief um definition of you know what what is the difference um between sponsorship and mentorship
um so I suppose my my kind of view in this is you know a mentor that is someone that provides guidance and
advice someone that you get to you know have a key impact on your career but
through providing good insights and helping you navigate maybe difficult situations or challenges that you have
in your career um whereas I think a sponsor is very
much someone who potentially is more senior to you but someone that can really like advocate for you and
actually not just help guide and steer you through opportunities but help actually create those opportunities for
you in your career yes and sometimes just being that voice in the room you
don’t even need to be present for a sponsor um just to kind of advocate for you when
you’re when you’re not in that room um is is super helpful um winter is that kind of uh your
experience of of sponsorship and mentorship um yeah I would mostly agree I think I
worded it a little differently um kind of based on skill sets I kind of Imagine a mentor as being someone who is
there to help you close the gaps and and learn where you
can be doing better where you can pick up more skills whereas a sponsor is there to push the envelope on what you
already excel at yes yes that that is a good definition actually
um between the two I think people that’s why we wanted to start off with it on this podcast people do get confused
between the two and I think they think that sometimes they can be the same thing um but they are absolutely
um different and uh different people that you need to try and find um as part of your career and for Anya yourself
would you agree oh yeah definitely with both of them um the the part about advocacy was sort
of interesting to me because I agree that his sponsor is definitely someone that you know steps in for you and when
you’re not in the room um and they agree that there is a component of sort of that seniority and
the mentorship that comes from being you know the role that they play as a sponsor um but I’ve also found that
um at least in you know the industry that we work in um the seniority of it helps in terms of
pushing for end goals um but advocacy or like people you know
advocating for you can come essentially from any level it’s just you know sort
of the power and the force behind it and how far it goes yeah an online friend
yeah I want you to ask um all of you um a little bit about the main benefits of
both uh sponsors and mentors because you you just mentioned never and you’re about advocacy
um which is so important because the main benefits of sponsors and mentors are hugely different because a sponsor
could dip in every now and then and advocate for you whereas a mentor you
know is more of an ongoing relationship where you kind of you know meet whether
it’s for coffee or you know some time to to share advice isn’t it do you think um
that there are there are different you know Main benefits to to each of them and both equally important
yeah at least for myself I’d say um I found mentors to like mentorship relationship to be a little less formal
um so I’m able to sort of tap into their their mindset or you know their advice as and when needed
um obviously there is a decorum that you need to follow but for the most part I found that people are very willing to you know hope you walk through whatever
you’re trying to resolve at the moment um with the sponsor again perhaps because of the seniority that
they you know the role that they are in um I’m a little bit more cautious about reaching out to them on a how often I
reach out to them right um and maybe it’s one of those things where I reach out to a sponsor specifically when I’m looking for their
specific view on what I’m trying to live with the issue that I’m going for that moment
um so that way I’d say there is a difference in the way I interact with them but that also I think
depends on the kind of sponsor or Mentor that you find it do you find I do know like I have been fortunate enough to
have a sponsor that you know sort of plays both the mentorship and the
responsive role uh but that’s because they do they are just inherently vested
in a day-to-day basis in my development yeah that’s quite lucky to find so good
bye everyone but it’s extremely fortunate yeah winter would you would you agree
um on what Vernier was saying that she was saying about the way that you interact with those people is so different because a mental can be less
less formal and for some people that would just you know that’s a sometimes a better relationship for you if it’s less
formal that person is you know not a senior then surely you’re more comfortable
um and you might take more from it you know if the way that you interact with that person is very different yeah it
definitely is and I find maybe this is from being significantly more on the digital side of things myself I find
oddly enough most times my most powerful sponsors have been our clients I get
kind of more from the client leadership um than from like leadership within my own team structure
because you know when you’re in Consulting it’s you know client is the the ultimate
um the ultimate person you’re trying to work for you’re trying to make happy so when they’re happy everyone’s happy
um so definitely it’s a very different relationship with a client than it is within your own team yeah I hadn’t even
thought of that because you’re right a sponsor can be internal or external and I’ve heard that as well we’ve we’ve
mentors um because you know people seem to think I’ll go looking for a mentor within my
company um and actually it’s sometimes beneficial to have mentors
um in all all areas of your career because somebody internally might give you different advice than somebody that
was um externally and I hadn’t even thought about that with sponsors um yeah that it it being a client
um Emma yourself have you do you have any sponsors that are clients or uh it’s
quite an interesting one I think most response would probably be more internal but it’s still incredibly important to
build that relationship with your clients where you know they are able to provide that that feedback they are you
are able to really demonstrate your kind of your business value for the client and have that right recognized and I think when it is recognized and when you
are advocated through that route it can also have a really positive impact on probably how you’re viewed internally as
well so really um open up some of the doors that way too um and I think yeah sponsorship can
sometimes be that kind of risk almost like reciprocal relationship where it kind of almost works both ways you get
sponsored but also you have to be able to kind of provide that value back to to your sponsor to get them invested and
advocate for you whereas yeah mentorship could be that bit more less formal and
maybe someone you kind of like trust or a bit more invested in
yes I agree in that finding someone um within your company sometimes can can be
easier especially if there’s a mentor program and you you can join up and some companies do like matchmaking of mentors
sometimes sponsors can be harder to find that’s that’s something that you almost it’s just it’s it’s more of an
investment you have to almost work throughout your career as well to to gain the trust of somebody and like you
said it works both ways they they advocate for you you might Advocate back at some point
um but I suppose as well on on that note Emma is that I wanted to ask you why do
you think women are over mentored and under sponsored do you think perhaps that’s one of the reasons you know a lot
of companies make it easier to have a mentoring program but sponsors might be quite hard to find especially somebody’s
very senior that’s that’s can be quite hard to find yeah definitely
um and I’ve actually been working as kind of the the lead for the dni team
within the data practice in the UK uh for the last kind of 12 months and I think that’s something that we’re really
trying to focus on as well as how do we um support uh kind of women to brew
through the mid-levels into the leadership positions and one of the things that have been set up become the women at Capco network is a mental ship
scheme for women at that kind of level but it is also recognizing yes we need
to be able to help provide them with that mentorship that guidance that support in how to probably advocate for
themselves in the career and progress but we also need that sponsorship and support from kind of the leadership team
to help provide those opportunities and create space for these women to be able
to progress in that way and actually leverage what they’re able to to get from their mentoring relationships yes
yes and I hear that often as well everything trickles down from the top and
everything needs to trickle down from leadership so yes if um a company is you know creating a
culture of of um you know where women feel like they can be um supported that that has to come from
the top through sponsorship as well it’s not kind of a um or we’re just on here we have the
expression somebody told me once start a slack Channel and it solves everybody’s problems you know you can’t just start a
slack Channel about supporting women in technology and expect all of your problems to be solved um they’re saying
with uh mentorship you you kind of can’t solve that problem with just mentorship you have to have sponsorship from your
leadership team as well um so it’s quite a challenge for for some companies winter what about
yourself why do you think women are over mentored and under sponsored so this is actually the question I think
I might have over thought um and I and I did really dig into this because it ends up hitting along one of
my backgrounds in communication um I did some studying on linguistic anthropology and at least in the US
especially where we still have a lot of kind of like culturally coded language
patterns um one of the things that I have found working in my professional career in the
States has been that there’s kind of this cultural communication barrier between the typically feminine coded uh
professionals and masculine coded professionals where kind of just the
nuances of in traditionally feminine communication styles are seen as being
trepidatious or unassured of their own skill sets and typically viewed from the flip side of
the coin you know they’re not as self-assured or confident in their own abilities
yeah um so it’s kind of that almost social stigma that I feel is working against us yes I’ve heard that often you
are absolutely correct I think I think that ladies perhaps and
um self-assured or they I I’ve heard on on this podcast often how many times we’ve heard about women that don’t apply
for a job because I don’t think they tickle the boxes or they need somebody um to encourage them to to go for the
role or manager or a sponsor or a mentor that encourages them to to go for that
um position so you’re absolutely right I think um sometimes that does work against us and perhaps that’s why women
do end up being over mentored and unders sponsored um because that’s what we’ve seen
um for Anya would you agree with that as to why women are over mentored and under sponsored sometimes yeah completely um I
think just generally mentorship is easier to find than sponsorship um but then on top of that I think
um perhaps the way women approach that or approach just being in the workplace is different than how men would or do
um and then I think it’s culturally viewed or the way men approach it with
the confidence um and the attitude they bring to it is always just treated as the you know the
better way to do it and so I think women then it becomes just like oh I just step back further yes all right completely
agree and you just sit there you know mentors can be easier to find um can I ask each of you a little bit
about your own experiences and um you know have you found mentors
easier to find and and have you ever had a sponsor for India and now you said you’ve got um that rolled into one
person um what were your experiences before finding that um that Gem of a person
I think um in my personal experience and I said mentioners are easier to find than sponsors I think first off oh they’re
hard to find people that you can costume rely on his experience they you um can sort of blindly take in some ways
is hard to find right so you do have to sort of find the right person to fit into those roles as well
um but having said that um I think generally people it’s easier for people to talk through their
experiences but they’ve what work what didn’t work and then you know I think lending I think so listening ear is
easier and most people would be more than happy to do that because they themselves have probably received it in
their past or they have children that understand you know what what it means for them
um I think the delineation and sort of Translating that person into a sponsor
um that I think goes back to what Emma was saying before is it is a reciprocal relationship um they if especially if they’re in a
senior position um for them to advocate for you they need to actually believe in you as well they
need to see that you will step in to do what’s needed and do it in a way that you know makes sense to them helps their
life as well so in some ways it is a reciprocal relationship too um that you have to sort of build with
them yes you’re right because a mental role a lot of people might feel quite
comfortable stepping into a mental role and as you said offering advice by actually advocating for somebody and
their skills that that’s quite that’s it’s quite a different role to take on as a sponsor
um rather than than a mental um I I agree there I’m Emma yourself what has your experience been like in in
finding uh mentors and sponsors yeah I think I think when I was probably
more more Junior levels the sponsorship probably came from more direct managers people who did want to you know see you
progress in your career you’re doing you’re doing well you kind of deserve to have those right opportunities
um whereas I think as they’ve kind of developed in my career it’s been a bit more I’ve had to be more conscious about
trying to find people to sponsor and have those kind of quite direct conversations about what I’m looking for
and what I can kind of bring in terms of value and what I need back and I think that that’s definitely
you know as I’ve grown and felt more confident to be able to do that probably widened the scope of who I can speak to
about being being a sponsor whereas yeah from a mentorship perspective it
definitely has been just just people that I’ve I’ve worked well with or kind
of admired or being able to build quite a good working relationship with that then have kind of developed into more
that kind of guidance and support role yes a Nissan grown throughout your
career I suppose as well what you what you require in a mentor and a sponsorship a sponsor when you’re quite
early in your career is very different as you grow anyway and also as we picked up on here as well having the confidence
to ask somebody when you’re very early on in your career when you could probably really do with a mentor as well
you don’t you don’t have that confidence to to reach out to somebody and say you know hey would you be my mentor or you
know could you um you know advocate for me um you can you don’t you don’t have that early on in your career do you you have
to wait a few jobs to even have the confidence really even to understand the importance of it and actually what value
it can can bring and how much it can help you yes
sorry Brandon and also just what to ask for because as you’re growing you don’t really know what you need to exactly you
just kind of you’re just grateful that you got a job at that point you know you’re just graduating on a kind of job
um yeah let alone knowing where you want to go next or who to ask to how to
progress in your career yes I I definitely agree um winter what has been your own
experience with finding mentors and and sponsors so I feel I agree that mentors are
definitely easier to come by I feel like I’ve taken mentorship from I think most people that I’ve worked
with to some degree um at least when you’re in the more technical digital space I feel like
there’s always something you can learn from everybody you work with um and so that’s always really nice to
be able to be part of that kind of culture where everyone is teaching everyone um
as for sponsors um I would say I’ve probably actually only had one sponsor in my professional career
um and uh one of the things that I’ve kind of noticed and made note is like
all of the uh people that I might have thought have been my sponsor at one point
um that really necessarily weren’t at the end of the day um all ended up being my male
professional leaders um and the one sponsor I do have is the female professional leader um out of my office
um and you know yeah there’s the gender discrepancy there but it really highlighted for me one thing which is
you’re only going to have an effective sponsor if you both want the same thing
yes if your professional targets are different then you’re not going to see the value in each other
yes definitely and finding somebody that you align um with on that can can be quite quite a
challenge obviously um as you said it can be more challenging to find a sponsor than a mentor
um I love the fact you said just taking something from from everybody that you work with as well
um and just having that mindset I suppose and being in that that learning mindset
um which as we mentioned when you go and do your first job you’re not you’re not thinking that way you’re not sure what
to ask from a mentor um and you’re probably not thinking I need to take everything I can and from
the people that I learned from um it’s just being thrown into the world at work it can be quite frightening
anyway um we’ve spoken a little bit uh about the differences between the two
um but how can people go about getting a sponsor or a mentor we’ve mentioned
um you know about people that you work with um line managers um
should you approach mentors and sponsors differently and as is it just as easy as
shooting somebody a message on LinkedIn for instance um Emma what what do you think how can
people go about that that topic take it just don’t go up to somebody at networking event after one drink and say
will you be my mentor no but I do think that actually those
sort of kind of networking events can open other doors and avenues to expanding your network and meeting some
inspirational people that you think might actually be really um good people to become your your
mentors or maybe eventually your sponsor so as you said I think it definitely can be within your own work environment
might be direct team it might be one of your clients um but it could be someone that you have
met through through your networking event as well um and I think you know Mentor
relationships can probably develop maybe a little bit more naturally it could be
just touching base going for a coffee um having a zoom chat and then seeing
how that kind of develops from there whereas um yeah I think from a sponsorship perspective it is probably
identifying someone that as you said does have similar kind of goals and
targets or values this yourself similar kind of career alignment or objectives
that you’re able to both kind of bring some some value to that partnership and
I think that probably can be quite quite a bit more challenging I think I’ve been in positions before where I thought
someone was being my sponsor and then probably transpired that maybe it wasn’t maybe needed to be more kind of
formalized or you know we do actually have more of a direct conversation about it
um whereas a deferred that’s not always necessary or required when it comes to a mentor yes or even with a mentor it can
be easier I think hear mental programs it can be easier to you know match make
with people whether that’s in your company or or externally but with a
sponsor it’s kind of um I had a lady on here who said to me it’s the that that voice
um who advocates for you when you’re not in the room so which is a you know lovely way of putting it there they’re
there when you’re not in the room so asking somebody to be your sponsor up front can be quite strange like hey you
know did you just like throw in my name when I’m not in that meeting you know it’s kind of strange to say
um so yeah it’s more built on a relationship with that person trust you you’ll work in towards the same goals
obviously um whereas yeah mentorship can can be informal in that way of hey do you want
to grab a coffee um and then that kind of turns into a monthly coffee um or whatever that may be
um so yeah mental mentors tend to be easier um to find
um Vereen you yourself how do you think people can go about getting a sponsor um and or a mentor
um I think the suggestion you had in terms of you know reaching out to people and being a networking events Etc to
find um you can find mentors that way and you can have you know conversations and informal chats with them
um that I think makes sense to me from a you know just exploring your own Horizons right like in terms of what is
available or not and there may be things that you come across as a result of speaking to people in my personal experience
um I’ve found that mentorship perhaps can be approached that way but sponsorship at
least for me personally has come in slowly it hasn’t been something that
I’ve been able to you know reach out to someone mentally say hey what about like
do you feel could you do this for me um it’s usually come in a little bit more slowly because it’s usually been a
inter it’s it’s been at a point where I’ve you know had interactions over months or years Etc
um and then I’m in a position to be able to get that or have that sort of conversation with them because by then
you’ve built that symbiotic relationship where they know what you need and you know you have the the Courage the
discipline the determination to ask and you know what you want to ask for as well um so I think I’ve found at least
personally like getting to that point takes a little bit of time yes it’s definitely a slow burner um
planning finding a sponsor and I find as well people put on their CVS
um you know they Mentor people they they Mentor young people for instance within
their company you don’t tend to see people saying I sponsor so and so or I
go out my way to try and you know advocate for young people and it’s not really something people tend to say but
they will put on their CV you know I I um have um mentored young people I have
several mentees for instance um so yeah you’re you’re definitely right they are they should be approached
um differently um when trying to find both but both obviously equally um important
um winter yourself how do you think people can can go about um finding a sponsor and a mentor
so I think everything that’s already been said about finding a mentors are spot on it really is kind of the quote
unquote easier in it I feel like it’s something you can actually go and pursue if you take the time and the effort
um but in my experience what I found is that sponsors tend to come to you
and that is kind of the difficult part is um to be able to actually get a sponsor
and to do it effectively um the best thing that I feel like you can do that’s inside your control is
just to be open about who you are um like I kind of phrase it as a
um this is what I’ve done this is why I think it’s important and this is where I want to take it and if you were super open about that
and always talking about it then the person who agrees with you is going to come to you
yes I yes I love that
they the leadership ranks as well as because it’s something to remember when you look back as well and think you know I wish I had had a sponsor and somebody
had come to me and advocated for me when I was um you know more Junior in my career and so hopefully you know as as
more um as more people go through their careers uh they remember to look back
and think you know what I can be a sponsor for somebody um and if I do align with somebody on
certain business goals um I need to go and approach somebody and then you’re all right the sponsor
does does uh come to come to you um after you’ve you’ve obviously made that connection
I think that’s why having conversations like this is so important as well because it’s really bringing visibility
to that and allowing people to recognize how can they actually be a mentor how can they be a sponsor for other people
um and I think have they ever thought about that yeah exactly and what opportunities do they have in their own
role you know at whatever level they’re at to be able to have that impact for someone else’s career as well yes
because it’s great it’s it’s great for for both people especially mentorship if
you you know want to add that to your CV or you want to add that you know that is something that you do that is extra
um then um I’ve heard conversations on here from people that are part of men they are mentors and I’ve had mentees
um and the benefits that both bring anyway because you learn from both of them from both of those experiences as
well so you’re right and I just think sometimes this is taking a step back and thinking can I be a mentor to somebody
or could I possibly um be a sponsor to someone um yeah perhaps something that not
everybody has thought about um throughout their careers so yeah hopefully um you never know this
conversation might spark uh some inspiration in people um and I wanted to ask you all a little
bit about uh do you think having a sponsor increases your visibility at
work um virenia can we start with you on that obviously you know it is super important
to be visible at work um to choosing having a sponsor really helps with that yeah I think very
incredibly um I think that because either comes in from behind closed doors when you’re not part of the room and
basically someone representing you when they don’t have to I think that’s beats so highly of you know what you can what
kind of qualities and new skills that you can bring to the table um if someone can do that when they’re
not under the gun that’s really big it really helps you um showcase what kind of like what level
of uh skill and ability you bring to the table for sure um I think also
kind of going back to where you guys we were just talking about in terms of um you know having those mentor and
mentorship conversations um the other aspect of it is that I don’t know when the switch Clicks in
terms of becoming a sponsor so it’s also one of those things that you continue those conversations and
then at some point I think you do need to have that thought about what you want to drive out of it but also just
maintaining what you’ve built because I think that’s the hard part where I’ve really had experiences where I’ve built
mentorship relationships and not necessarily invested as much as I would like to and therefore perhaps lost you
know someone that would have been a sponsor otherwise too yes I I love the fact that you just said
the the when when the switch is flicked and you’re all right you’d kind of it’s
almost for a sponsor sometimes isn’t something that is formally discussed either it’s this kind of you know the
switch is flicked and um somebody is a sponsor um for you so yeah I think um
approaching uh both um uh very differently um both are very different and both need
to be approached differently um winter yourself do you think having a sponsor increases uh your visibility
um at work it absolutely does um and the importance is
there aren’t enough words to really emphasize how important it is and you know I do want to be fair and call you
out there with my own personal experience of of having only worked in the states um and I’ve only worked in Consulting
um but I found without a sponsor it is practically impossible to actually move
through your company professionally um and to actually get to your professional targets
yes definitely and I think that depends on the company as well doesn’t it I mean
um I suppose if you’re a startup there are less people so you tend to have more contact with your leadership team for
instance rather than a big company kind of depends doesn’t it whether or not your
leadership team are accessible as well um it depends so
um I in Consulting I’ve I’ve worked at you know your large Global uh
corporations like Capco um but um I first started at a small software shop of 60 people
um and even there I found kind of the same thing of without having that sponsor there
um nobody really pays you any attention yes yes so important to find one to to
have that visibility and Emma yourself if you felt the same way with a sponsor can really help you to be visible at
work yeah absolutely I think it’s um partly being more visible I think there are
obviously ways that you can make yourself visible and put yourself in in those positions but I think it’s also
being recognized by kind of the leadership team for the work that you’re doing for
um the the value that you’re adding and being able to build up that kind of that reputation or that brand I think without
someone to support Advocate that and even if it’s more of kind of you know in
agreement with someone else’s perception um but having those voices in the room
to be able to provide that backing for you I think that’s invaluable I don’t I
don’t think without that sort of sponsorship or recognition um that you you can progress in the same
way yes and without always I mean it is important to advocate for yourself
always um but it’s it’s having that extra person having somebody else to do it
instead of you always feeling like you have to be the voice of I’m doing this and this was a great project because I
was on it you know it comes off as arrogance having a sponsor that can advocate for you and when you’re not in
the room uh obviously will really improve your visibility and within the company and just let the leadership team
know that you are on the map and doing great things throughout throughout the company and regardless of of the company
size um as well um as you were saying winter it can be the same whether you’re a big
company or or a small company um we are almost out of time everybody
so I wanted to ask you um one final question do you have any final advice for our listeners um who
are thinking about uh either getting a mentor or um a sponsor
um or perhaps already doing that themselves or considering becoming one themselves
um very new should we start with you um I think is this this will vary
depending on where you’re in your career I’d say especially if you’re starting new um
invest in yourself to take the time to to have that informal coffee or lunch
with seniors at your team your farm it might be a little bit intimidating to
start off but ultimately I think that’s the starting point where you’re signaling that you’re
looking for guidance advice and it’ll open up your eyes in terms of you know just what are the sort of
roles opportunities that are available to you what are sort of topics you should be looking at and start from
there I think whether or not you get a mentor out of it or a sponsor out of it you’ll learn
something out of it you’ll build a relationship there and that will if you start putting in the work it’ll slowly
lead to you finding those mentors and sponsors yes and even as you said they’re just
making the time to have a coffee or making the time to reach out to leadership and saying you know hey can
we have a discussion about something I think that really shows them that you’re very invested in that company you know
you yeah you’re not that person that is thinking oh I’ll just jump around from company to company if you’re reaching
out and asking for help then it sounds like you are heavily invested in you
know the company’s goal and what they want to do and and you want to know more surely that can only work in your favor
yeah and I think that’s that sort of proactive approach also
um opens lets them know what you’re looking for in terms of the next role that you want to do right so that helps
with that helps then in terms of the kind of advice you receive but also if
they start to think about sponsoring you they know what to sponsor you for as well yes because they’re not mind readers
it’s the other thing that you know they could sponsor you in a completely different direction and you think that’s
not what I wanted to do actually you’re pushing me in the wrong direction so you’re right even just having an open conversation with uh the leadership team
about what you know you you want to do next um at least they know uh whether or not they’re going in the right direction
um those great great advice um winter yourself any final advice for
our listeners yeah so I I would say for mentorship
um the biggest thing is allow yourself to make mistakes um that is I say this especially to
um newer people coming in and especially newer people coming into technical Fields like software like even Financial
domain Technologies there’s kind of this you know really expectation to to get it
right the first time and to do the best you can and you know you’re worried about making that good impression but
you know generally you’re gonna find people humans are really quite helpful they really want to see everyone do well
together um so if you allow yourself to make visible mistakes and not try to like
hide them or solve them on your own you’re going to get the help that you need and that’s going to grow into a
mentorship and that’s going to be someone you can learn from and and do better with um just being honest about yourself and
yeah I love that yeah uh for sponsorship um this is almost a non-advice because
it’s just so difficult and it’s something I’m still even trying to learn today but the most powerful tool you will ever
have is learn how to manage up it’s the hardest thing you will ever
have to learn how to do and it’s the most valuable yes yes I love that advice
um because it’s something that we don’t we don’t think of day to day um and I think it is one of those things
once you move throughout your career and that it it starts to Dawn on you and you
do need to think about um managing up as you as you say and it’s great advice
um Emma yourself any final advice for for our listeners um well I think very new and winter have
touched on some some really good points there um but I think kind of to Echo
um virenia it’s as well as making the time to start building those relationships take time to kind of
reflect on your own career and and how things are going and what you’re looking for what maybe you’re enjoying what
maybe you’re missing and what you need more support on I think it’s very easy especially in in our career in
Consulting to get you know very just into all your delivery work your client
priorities and trying to deliver for for everyone else but I think it’s really
important to make time to make sure you’re taking time to reflect on your your own career growth
um and looking for that support that you need to to help um to help grow that and to see how
those kind of mentor and sponsor relationships can support you so I think I’ve seen a lot of people doing really
well um but not necessarily making the most of the kind of opportunities that they
are and kind of stunting their growth and progression a bit there yes I think as well that can being in the right
company can really help with that some companies are really good at encouraging you to think outside of your day job
um and thinking you know what take some time just to think about what you would like to do and how you would like to
progress outside of as you said all of those daily things that you do and you just get wrapped up in client work
um you reach the end of the year and you think maybe I haven’t really moved forward I know I did a lot but maybe I
didn’t move forward very much in my career so um yeah that’s great advice to just remember to take the time and to to
think you know what what would I like next um whether that’s finding a mentor or a sponsor or becoming one yourself
and whatever it may be um that is a lovely note to end it on because we are already out of time
everybody thank you so much for for joining me today it’s been um so interesting to hear
um about the differences between sponsorship and mentorship and how women are over mentored and understandable so
thank you so much everyone for joining me thank you and to all of our listeners
um thank you so much for listening in as always thank you for joining us and we hope to see you again next time
