In recent years, tech has played a pivotal role in transforming the UK legal sector.
Technology is improving access to legal aid, providing increased security when it comes to sensitive and confidential information, and freeing up lawyers’ time through automation.
In the UK, LegalTech is a rapidly growing sector. Companies are on a fast-track trajectory of growth, growing at an average rate of 101% over the last three years, outpacing other applied tech sectors.
There are ample career opportunities and chances to grow your skillset. But what does a career in LegalTech entail? How do I get into LegalTech and what skills do I need?
We pose these questions to Dr Catriona Wolfenden, a partner in a law firm, who runs the innovation wing of the business and leads a team of technologists.
Dr Catriona Wolfenden is Weightman’s Product and Innvoation Director. She leads innovation and product initiative across the firm, ensuring that deliver is aligned to clients’ needs and Weightmans’ overall strategy.
Whether you’re exploring LegalTech for the first time, looking for advice, this podcast is for you.
hello everyone and thank you for tuning
in again I am Kaylee Boatman the content
director at chican code and today we’re
going to be discussing legal Tech now
technology is improving access to Legal
Aid providing increased security when it
comes to sensitive and confidential
information and freeing up lawyers time
through Automation in the UK legal Tech
it’s a rapidly growing sector and now
our ample career opportunities and
chances to grow your skill set but what
does a career in legal Tech entail how
do you get into legal Tech and what
skills are required thankfully we have
the wonderful Dr Katrina wolfenden here
with us today to discuss this topic cat
is a partner in a law firm who runs the
Innovation wing of the business and
needs a team of technologists welcome
welcome cat hi thanks for having me
thank you for joining us so cat your
products and Innovation director at
weightman’s yeah and can you share with
us a little bit about your career uh
journey and background so far please yep
certainly so I was um I suppose an
accidental solicitor had always wanted
to be um a Barry Stone couldn’t get a
few pitch I kind of fell into
um being a solicitor and did that for a
number of years running teams and things
at Wakeman’s
um I think it’s fair to say I was
probably a reluctant solicitor so for
those of you don’t know solicitors
record their life in six minute units
and that’s literally how your day goes
and that wasn’t what I thought it wasn’t
what I ever saw for the rest of my life
so I moved into another imagine and
moved into Knowledge Management because
that was much more kind of my
um where my interests lie and kind of
giving advice on broader strategic
things like that and it was then I
started to kind of see all the the legal
Tech the law Tech stuff happening
um in the in the trade press and started
um in my spare time really and dabbling
with a bit of that before being made
Innovation manager couple of years ago
and at the beginning it was just me and
my boss stew doing it kind of around
other jobs then it became full-time
Endeavors and now we’ve got teams and
departments who are kind of doing this
um whole time
oh wow okay
um so you had quite quite a career
Journey so far
um
let’s go a little bit our community I
would love to know you know what exactly
is legal Tech
yeah so I suppose legal Tech and law
Tech almost used interchangeably really
and it’s all about using technology to I
suppose provide legal services in a
different way and that could be thinking
about internal clients so for us as a
business how do we help our lawyers be
more efficient and be able to get the
answer more consistently and all of that
kind of thing get the technology to do
the heavy lifting and then on the client
side how can we Empower us our clients
to do some of it themselves so do they
need to instruct a lawyer for everything
are their tools and technologies that
can help them and other ways that we can
diversify as a law firm can we offer
other services and products and where
technology is part of the answer and I
suppose that what it isn’t it’s not the
kind of case management systems the
account management systems the
um you know the Marketing Systems it’s
not the kind of the core I.T the legal
technology is the stuff that sits on top
of that so almost I suppose the fun fun
a bit of it so all the kind of the
exciting uai a data scientists and all
of that kind of thing so moving away
from core systems and trying to really
look back at the way I suppose lawyers
have worked for you know 20 30 years and
going can we envisage doing this
differently does it have to be a lawyer
doing that and using really the
technology where it can help so it’s not
just and I suppose the legal press likes
to do the march of the robot lawyers and
everything put the fear into everybody
and it’s not about that really I suppose
people are still at the heart of legal
Tech Law Tech
um and you know it’s the people who
design the systems or train them up and
who’ll understand when to use them and
when not to use them and put their
expertise in it so still very much
people
um at the heart of it but really I
suppose using technology to do the heavy
lifting so you know it takes a long time
to change to be a lawyer nobody wants to
sit in a law firm and enter data into a
system so if you can have something that
does it magically in the background then
why why wouldn’t you want to use it
yeah yeah and so based on that then do
you have to be technical I think a lot
of our a lot of our ladies are very
technical but also a lot of um ladies
that join Tech I think they worry that
they have to be technically minded and
they have to have a computer science
degree is that you know something when
you hit legal Tech do you have to you
know know how to code and no not at all
my husband was laughing that I was on
this because ironically I can’t code um
and I’m certainly not in charge of I.T
in our house um I think as with all
things you’ve got to have an open mind
haven’t you so you’ve got to know what
you don’t know so I know the bits of you
know data science or the developer um
coding and all of that that I can’t do
but I know I’ve got enough awareness to
be able to know who to ask and the kind
of the right questions and stuff so I
don’t think the technical skill
um you know is an absolute requirement
um a lot of people end up teaching
themselves bits and Bobs so I’ve got a
team with a real variety of backgrounds
I’ve got people with science degrees
people who’ve done um you know for
earning legal work before and who on the
side have taught themselves the useful
bits that now enable them to do their
job and but certainly not not having a
you know a strict kind of computer
science background hasn’t been been any
barrier I think it is that kind of real
open-minded inquisitiveness
that really is kind of the key to to
doing well in in legal Tech
yeah yeah it’s nice to hear that you
have a team with a very broad background
as well and it’s something um at the
minute I I find myself talking to a lot
of ladies who have transitioned from one
career into technology
um that you don’t have to always be you
know technically trained um to to move
into other areas uh within the tech
sector
um but what skills would be helpful then
if you were coming into legal Tech
yes I think I’ve mentioned one of them
haven’t I that kind of open-mindedness I
think that’s a really important
um skill and I think especially um you
know kind of younger people coming in
there’s a lot of talk in the legal
profession about kind of o-shaped
lawyers
um not not kind of in the donut way but
in the kind of the skills and stuff
you’ll need so back in the day when I
qualified they had eye shaped lawyers so
if you can imagine a capital I and the
most of that was your legal knowledge
and that was all you needed really to
kind of get by they then moved on to
t-shaped lawyers so if you think of the
crossbar of as the T these were all your
other skills so kind of there might be
some
um BD skills there might be some process
skills
um you know a better Finance those kind
of skills so kind of already broadening
that out and the current trend is this
oh shape lawyer so someone who’s
opportunistic open-minded and has a much
broader skill set and I think you know
as a profession we probably recognize
we’re not going to find all of those
skills in one person so what you’re
trying to do is play later people’s
strengths and to try and have as much of
a supposed diverse and almost Rebel team
as you can picking those different kind
of traits and skills and hoping
everybody
um bounces off you so certainly
open-mindedness and that that ability to
problem solve and to want to
problem-solve to be able to you know
take sometimes you know what have been
processes that have been set in the mod
for you know years and years and to
actually kind of look at them through a
different lens and and want to try and
do things differently so I think that’s
that’s a really important one I think
I’ve talked already about kind of the
people side of legal technology the
ability to get on with people just can’t
be underestimated you know you are
collaborating firm wide and so you know
we’ll have
will be involved with the finance team
with elements of the marketing team with
lawyers with Partners you know all
across the firm and these kind of groups
of people all have very different I
suppose characteristics and ways of
communicating and and the different
acceptance of change I suppose so
knowing where people are on that kind of
change spectrum and how best to deal
with them and lead them through that
change also really important
um I think there’s something in the kind
of that resilience that being okay with
failure and that took me I suppose a
long time to get over so I suppose as a
lawyer you’re used to the being almost a
deafness outcome because somebody wins
or loses or somebody gets a payout so
there’s that kind of degree of finality
to it and when you move over to the tech
side a lot of it is well let’s just try
let’s see if we can do it a different
way and that trial and error when you’ve
been that used to there’s an answer and
we can we can do it takes quite a shift
in mindset so that ability I suppose to
to fail faster to try things fail fast
learn the lesson and move on
um was something I took a little bit of
time to get get used to I’d kind of hang
on to things thinking no no we can just
try another way when actually you should
be killing stuff so that I suppose that
decisiveness and which does come a bit
with experience but that ability to
think
um you know it it it could be the best
idea but it could be the wrong time or
there might not be the resource and so
that kind of thing
I’m and I suppose that they’re really
the main skills so the kind of the
open-mindedness the people and the
failure aspect I would say are the and
they would be the skills that if people
could demonstrate them would set them
out from
um kind of other people trying to get
into legal technology jobs yeah yeah do
you um it’s interesting what you say
about uh trying and failing because
that’s something
um that you know the people that work in
technology we know that’s what the
industry is like it’s very fast paced
you know you do have the ability the
environment and a safe environment to be
able to to learn things how fast as you
say yeah and move on and I think
sometimes particularly technology it has
a stereotype
um related to it where people think it’s
going to be boring it’s going to be very
slow you know do you do you think there
are any stereotypes attached to legal
and also
there’s lots of stereotypes associated
with with legal I suppose you know
obviously massively General generalizing
law lawyers are perhaps not the most
tech savvy profession and you know
they’ve done what they’ve done for years
and years you know we’ve moved on from
you know dictaphones and stuff onto
digital dictation and all of that kind
of thing you’ve still got cohorts of
lawyers who think Excel being able to do
pivot tables is probably the wizziest
thing that they’re ever going to they’re
ever going to say so there is an element
of I suppose trying to show people the
art of the possible
um without scaring them and I suppose
covid has really helped with that so I
mean law firms Chuck an awful lot of
Technology at you know lawyers anyway so
we’ve got you know Case Management
Systems we’ve got billing systems we’ve
got things to record and marketing
meetings and all of that loads of
different core systems already and you
know that people have got to grips with
I suppose what covid helped with were
suddenly and it’s probably the only
thing it has helped with is that
suddenly everybody was using technology
in their home life as well to a much
greater degree so suddenly people were
video calling the grandkids and all of
that because they had to so actually
they’re they’re open-mindedness and
their willingness to try new things they
thought if I can master that at home why
can they do kind of do this with clients
or and we suddenly got you know queries
and and kind of comments from people who
we wouldn’t traditionally have got
requests or or that kind of thing from
and so I think that’s kind of helped
with people thinking well what is the
art of art of the possible
um I think as well you know legal
technology
I suppose that there’s there’s a sliding
scale isn’t it with AI as to how wysy
and stuff you’re going to go
um and and at the base of it you still
need the right data the right process
and the right people otherwise nothing
wizzy um is going to happen so I think a
lot of myths are um you can almost lob
an idea over to an innovation team and
that’s as a lawyer or an expert that’s
your work done you’ve stepped back
you’ve given the idea and that’s it um
and I suppose part of that the messaging
is to try and and get people to come on
that kind of Journey with you so being
clear about the the different stages of
development what they’ll need to input
in and kind of the expectations and the
level of involvement they will need to
have
um have with that but I think you know
it is an area there’s loads of
technology that we’ve got that you can
kind of almost you know mock things up
in a day that kind of thing you can
actually sit with lawyers and I think
um
I suppose lawyers it’s all the written
word isn’t it so very used to writing
things very used to you know being in
court or speaking to people but actually
making something live for them and doing
it is really really helps them so some
of the times with technology they can
understand the problem but they can’t
unless it’s Give an example given in
their particular expertise see how it’s
going to cross over to them so I mean
we’ve got some particular technology we
use that reads documents but you’ve got
to show the type of document that the
lawyer looks at so there’s no point
showing a contract to a real estate
lawyer because they won’t kind of
twicken and get
um understand what that means to them so
a lot of it has been training it in
different systems and then showing it
back to them in their area so they get a
bit of context and I can start to
imagine how that would then relate to us
and it’s really it’s really cool to see
the penny dropping with them and then to
go oh that’s brilliant and could it then
do this this and this so you’re just
trying to kind of ignite that spark with
um with whatever you can and carry on
yeah I mean you mentioned several
aspects there about you know um fun
things about the job you’ve also
mentioned about you get to work with a
variety of different departments and
people
um what what do you love about your role
in the industry though so I suppose the
best thing is that no two days are the
same I can literally look at my calendar
for the next couple of months and every
day will be different so
um you know a lot of involvement with
clients and kind of scope in meetings
and discussing with them what their
problems are then they’ll be work with
the marketing team looking at go to
market strategies with my product
manager and that kind of thing and then
you know yesterday we sat in our lovely
Innovation space a group of us on the
whiteboards drawing stuff out problem
solving and so it’s just totally
different every day and that’s something
I think I really I really enjoyed
yeah yeah and I think as well that that
probably is
um breaking that stereotype as well like
you said of what people think of legal
and also what people think of tech
um
in the future where where do you see
um the sector progressing I think law
Tech and Eagle Tech very much still um
buzzwords and quite hyped in the
industry so I think we’ll probably go
through a stage where people actually
realize what the technology can do what
it can’t do and its limitations and
stuff and I think with technology
knowing what it can’t do is as important
as knowing what it can do I think we’ll
see more kind of roles developing so we
were quite
um early on in terms of getting an
innovation team and a product team with
other firms that are doing that I think
we’ll see different ways of structuring
that though within law firms so
um some law firms have that as an
offshoot of I.T and it’s kind of I.T
people who’ve moved into those roles
some do it from Knowledge Management
roles like I did and transition into it
and then some have their um their legal
Technologies almost embedded in legal
teams as well so I think what we’ll
start to see over the next five ten
years is more I suppose
multi-disciplinary teams so
traditionally I think lawyers thought
it’s a legal piece of work you know I’ll
get the right level of lawyer on it and
we’ll have a junior lawyer I’ll have a
senior lawyer and that kind of thing I
think we’re moving much more into the
space where it’s it’s coming in and they
go well this is a business problem as
well as a legal problem so we need you
know the client needs a repeatable
solution they need to be able to
self-service themselves or generate the
documents themselves without having to
keep asking us so I think there’s much
more of a kind of right let’s get a
squad at the beginning let’s get the
right more conditionally plenary team
let’s get somebody from billing in to
work out how that fits going to work
let’s get somebody in to look at the
process let’s get the legal
technologists in so I think I’m much
more kind of
collaborative from the off
um kind of ethos I think will start um
happening and I suppose just a
proliferation really of a right variety
of different roles so we’re starting to
see um ux and UI roles up in law firms
we’re seeing roles that are looking at
kind of accessibility of tech and lots
of things about adoption because
obviously having this shiny wizzy thing
is any part of the journey actually
getting people to use it and to train
them and to keep improving it is is
another side so I think we’ll see these
kind of
you know the roles will kind of morph
into to wider roles than perhaps they
are um traditionally advertised so again
more of an emphasis on the people side
of it so not just the you know here’s a
piece of technology really looking at
how you can embed it how you can get
adoption and how you can generate your
next set of ideas from that as well
yeah yeah I if you were one of our
ladies listening in and you were
thinking you know about a career in Tech
where where would you start you know
would obviously it would help if you had
um you know some experience in legal or
even some experience in Tech like you
mentioned if you were a ux designer a UI
designer for example
um but you know if you if you suddenly
thought to yourself This is an area I
would like to move into is there
anywhere where you think you know people
can get started
yeah I suppose the the legal Innovation
world is quite a small world so
everybody kind of knows each other and
we’re quite a friendly Bunch so the
usual advice is just to seek out
somebody on LinkedIn or something and
just say can I have a chat so
um you know I’ve done that loads of
times and stuff I don’t think it’s a you
know it’s a barrier not having had that
legal experience or anything you know
it’s nice to have people who come with
different ideas and who can think of it
differently so you know we’ve got plenty
of lawyers who can all think the same
kind of things there’s somebody who can
shake that up
um it’s really good so I wouldn’t think
that not having that legal background
would be a
a barrier and she’ll put people off and
there’s loads of good websites as well
to get you started things like
artificial lawyer
um Catherine bamford’s got bam League
all those kind of things and where
there’s just kind of good uh you know
even historic kind of updates and stuff
on what law Tech looks like what what
law firms are doing what the Market’s
doing that kind of thing and just to
understand a little bit of the context
about what’s going on and most bigger
law firms that have Innovation and
product departments do have stuff on
their website about it as well so
um I would say do a bit of reading
around there’s some good books on kind
of AI for lawyers
um that have been that have been written
um over the years
um and so I suppose really just you know
seek somebody out ask questions and
again I suppose if you’re mod junior in
your career pick off the junior people
in teams as well because we’re always
trying to encourage them this isn’t this
is kind of a new area for for everybody
so we’re encouraging our Junior
colleagues to expand their networks and
things to kind of always just you know
feel free to to reach out for people and
ask questions so nobody if you’ve come
with interesting questions he’s probably
ever going to turn you away in the
Innovation sphere we love we love a good
problem or a good question
and you mentioned there’s some great
advice as well about expanding your
networks and which is something that we
encourage a lot um in our community
um do you do I’m really running out of
time already
um do you have any final words of advice
for our listeners
I suppose as women you perhaps sometimes
don’t jump into things if you don’t
think you can do it 100 and I think
that’s certainly something that I’ve
been guilty with in the past so I
probably would say if this is kind of an
area that interests you and you’ve even
got the slightest inclination that you
want to do it I would say kind of jump
in rather than wait to tell you you take
everything off because that day probably
isn’t going to happen or the law or the
technology will have changed and you’ll
always be chasing something that
um is never in reach or I would say you
know if it is of interest
um you know speak to somebody have those
chats start reading around the subject
and and just go for it
yeah because as we’ve mentioned before
technology is that industry where you
are allowed to try and found anything
yeah you don’t have to be technical to
be in that environment where you know
you can just come up with an idea and
try something and move forward
um and it’s something as I mentioned
before those of us that work in
technology are well aware of that and
it’s something that we wish that more
people on the outside knew it’s almost
like a hidden secret isn’t it that until
you’re in you realize actually people
don’t know all the answers and stuff and
most people are winging it you know
probably winging it under a bit of a
safety net and there’s some substance
behind it but actually people don’t know
the answer to everything and part of it
is recognizing that and pulling the
right people into meetings or asking the
right question that then sets off
another train of thought with other
people so yeah definitely uh go for it
yeah wonderful well that is perfect
advice to end on so thank you so much
Kat for taking the time to chat with me
thanks for having me
thank you very much about you know legal
Tech we haven’t had as a topic yet and
it’s incredibly interesting and we would
love to follow up with you
um in the future as well for another one
um and to everybody listening thank you
as always for joining us and we hope to
see you again next time
