72% of women in the tech industry believe their careers are still suffering due to childcare and family responsibilities, according to a survey of 100 female tech leaders by London Tech Week. Thankfully, bold businesses and individuals are starting to bring about change.
To be a successful working mother it takes passion, drive, and courage, but also the support of a good employer. In this episode of Spilling The T, we sit down with Maria Chappell, Analytics Engineer at Dojo, who shares her experience of being a working parent in tech and how the support of your employer can make such a difference.
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hello everyone thank you for tuning in as always I am Katie Bateman the content director at she came code and today
we’re discussing juggling motherhood and working in Tech designing your own work
life balance now 72 of women in the tech industry believe their careers is still
suffering due to child care and family responsibilities according to a survey of 100 female Tech leaders by London
Tech week to be a successful working mother it takes passion drive and courage but also the support of a really
good employer today I’ve got the wonderful Maria Chapel analytics engineer at Dojo with me today to share
her experience of being a working parent in Tech and how the support of your employer can make such a difference
welcome Maria hi there thank you so much for taking the time to come and have a chat with us
today um we actually we’ve we’ve had a few conversations about this on the podcast
um but not in as much detail as though so this this I’m really looking forward to um hearing your insights into to being a
working parent um and and uh and how you navigate that so we’re going to kick off the conversation though with a little bit
about yourself if that’s okay if you can share a bit about your background to set the scene sure so um hi there thanks for
having me today um I’m an analytics engineer here at JoJo um I reckon that that’s part of the data
organization so I work within the data kind of function um my role it’s it’s a very technical role
um it involves a lot of coding um hence why we’re on this um podcast
um but my background actually isn’t traditionally in in that area so I’ve
actually come from um a buying background and I just a lot of category management for many years
um and then but numbers has always been like really key for me and like looking and
analyzing and I’ve always wanted to do that and have access to data and numbers
um and so I gradually started doing more and more reporting for certainly for
myself and our team and then gradually other people in the business were like oh this is really cool oh you’re you
know producing some great stuff here can you do this for us and and I kind of just moved gradually into a more like
anal analytical role I was saying a commercial analyst for for that company and then I realized oh actually I really
really like this I want to deep dive more into this um so then I
transitioned to well I moved to Dojo actually which was um and my and my role then was was
actually bi analyst um and it involved a lot of uh kind of
doing more front-end analysis producing reports but at the back of my mind I still had
this niggle I like I really liked writing SQL code I really liked and I self-taught I learned it myself so just
did some online courses um yeah to kind of plug a gap where we
didn’t have access to to report so I was doing it myself um and then yeah because I came to Jojo
and um was writing these reports but at the moment back on my mind I was always like
how where how does this data get produced where do we get it where do we how did it come into our data warehouse
how do we transform it because that layer wasn’t like visible to me but that is now what I do and I’ve I’ve just as
I’ve transitioned into that and I’m I’m just yeah absolutely loving it um you know it’s so interesting when
people say they’re like numbers and data but I mean I work with words and you’re kind of one or the other aren’t you you
kind of yeah I think so I’m in front of numbers and you know you are one or the other well you always like that though
were you like that at school did you like maths what what subjects did you did you like yeah
um yes always loved math must was my highest scoring subject um but I when I went to school I I
couldn’t really see or didn’t know know of any careers way maths could take you other than being a teacher and not that
I didn’t want to be a teacher I did consider it I was like I don’t know where to go with this
um and certainly things like coding was just not around when I was like thinking of going to UNI so it’s very exciting
I’m so excited for like current Generations who can do this at Uni
um especially girls um but but yeah so um so I was like I do
like maths but I’m really interested in history I still love history and um particularly like architecture and
buildings so that’s actually what I want to do at Uni um and then and I did that and I also
did a masters really just trying to figure out what am I going to do and um and and then I I really enjoyed it and I
think it gives you lots of skills I actually part of what I did in that course um in the Masters was analyzing a lot of
maps and that’s probably where that was like ticking a box for me where I was like oh I’m analyzing data here without
realizing it I thought I was doing history but actually I was like analyzing maps and we were plotting
um plotting evidence and things um so yeah I’ve probably subconsciously
that’s what I was looking for and then you know when you were like when you leave uni you’re just like looking for a
job so I started temping at a stationary company and uh then the internal role
came up for a junior buyer and I thought okay so don’t know what I want to do yet so
I’ll just go for it and it says that you kind of need to be good at like thinking and like looking at numbers and I’m like
yeah I can’t I I think I can so and then I when I was once I got in I was like I love this like analyzing how products
perform looking at um like pricing and like you know negotiating with suppliers on pricing
and stuff like that because you’ve got to analyze data in order to know what you’re going to be negotiating on or for
something or you know what products you want to be purchasing so I think so I just went down that path and
actually and really enjoyed it and I spent many years in that industry um and built up to like
um senior by a category manager I ran a team briefly and um and I think at the
back it’s using data has always been key in those
roles and um um and then gradually as I got into the more commercial analysis I just realized
oh this is I think I’m really like hitting something here this is actually
what we really want to go down right yeah and I just think it’s um I didn’t know it at the time when I
was at school but yeah I think that’s what I’ve kind of have always like
probably wanted to go go into it’s a we it’s so interesting to always hear how
people end up in Tech because a lot of people have that misconception if you don’t take a computer science degree at
University you know you you haven’t got a career map Things Tech but nine times
out of ten even the people on this podcast they have such an interesting way in and a lot of them have not come
in Via a computer science degree you know find their way in through through lots of different routes
um but they tend to have something about them when they’re a child they liked something um about a stem subject and as you said
a lot of people um didn’t have people come into their schools and show them what kind of
career paths are available um which thankfully you know is is growing now and more people in the
industry are sharing uh obviously what a great industry is to work in and but you’re absolutely right unless um you
fall into it or somebody encourages you into that direction and it is shine to hear that people fall in but then
obviously you know great talent is coming into the Second Street every day um so yeah these people are eventually
making it and you’re like yeah hopefully made it um what would you say you are most proud of
in your career so far I think the thing I’m most proud of is doing all those transitions so going
from being a buyer to category manager and then transitioning into like a more
analyst role um and then doing more kind of front-end analysis and then
pivoting that into what I do now which is the back end coding and being an engineer I I just I’m really proud of
saying that when I tell my friends like oh this is not my job title it doesn’t it’s not just that my job title has
changed it’s that I am a coder I am an engineer and I just I love that it’s
very cool ring to it yeah yeah yeah yeah and and also you said that you
were um self-taught a little bit as well um that that’s that’s quite a unique um
skill isn’t it and I’ve I’ve heard that a lot from people that work in technology and that a lot of uh
Engineers for instance they’re always self-learning they’re always continually learning in and out of the workplace
um and I suppose it’s just it’s one of those traits isn’t it of people that work in your your area
I think so yeah I think you have to be King to learn and um
it self-learning I mean it’s important and but it’s just this desire but you’re
learning it’s not even just about oh can I just find an online course it’s learning is a mindset it’s also like in
your role are you like learning from others are you learning um so it’s even when you’re within the
role um like uh listening to say peers or
seniors um around you who do your role and like how are they doing this and like um learning like that as well is like is
really important um uh and yeah and but also self-learning so for me because I didn’t
have that technical um background I didn’t go to university to study study this
um it was I mean it was it was just I I essentially just bugged the tech
department for a long time I was like I just really need to see some data I can’t make any decisions without seeing
the statement I’ve bugged them for so long and then eventually um uh head of Tech who’s just like oh
just give Maria access to this sequel and just let her if she can figure it out and so I was like right I will do
this and I was determined to prove to them like I can do this I can learn Sequel and I will start writing reports
and I’ll produce something valuable to the company and um uh yeah and I did and
I used to just stay behind after work in some evenings and do that um you know when it you know people
would leave and it would be quiet in the office say or you know or perhaps when I got home
just do like it’s a bit of research online but um yeah uh it is definitely having an
eagerness to learn is is important yes definitely and with yourself you
juggle learning um and motherhood um and I that’s what you know um what
we’re going to be focusing our conversation on today um about juggling a work by balance and being at the right
employer but I’m curious did you take maternity whilst though Joe um and what was your experience of that
yeah I did um yeah so I’d already worked at dojo for just over a year and then
and then I did go on to the maternity leave um well in my experience
um leading up to it it was my first and only child um it was I was very nervous I was just
so worried like how how am I leaving all my work am I going to get everything finished and I was just so nervous of
leaving and I um yeah was you know maturity to have all sorts of handovers and all this kind of
thing and then the minute you are on maternity leave your world is upside down you’ve done it’s just
totally changed and you don’t think about work at all and everything I worried about in the lead-ups going on
that leave I you just it goes out of your mind um and that’s good because you do have like something new in your life and you
really do need to focus on that and that’s important um and I didn’t think about work
maybe I shouldn’t say this but I didn’t think about work for a long time and it was it was great it’s a good thing and
um um and then but I had friends at work so you know I did stay in touch but more in a social sense rather than oh what’s
going on in the world of data um but what was going on was there was
um a whole restructure in the business was happening a in the business itself but also within the data organization so
a chief data officer to come in and he brought um uh other team members over
um from another company and they were building out um a they brought with them lots of new
tools tools that I hadn’t ever used um they brought over new techniques and
as part of the building out that new data organization a lot of what I’ve mentioned previously which is the access
to the raw data like how do we get it into our data warehouse how do we transform the data and what logic to
reply all of that side of it suddenly sat with us and um
and so and then I like um as the the time approach to for me to
come back to to work then I started to get nervous and I’d heard oh there’s lots of things changing oh there’s loads
of new people you’ve got a new boss you’ve never met him and I was like oh gosh um uh but
Mike did reach out a number of times in what I did go into the office and I met him and um and it was I mean he really reassured
me he just put me at ease he was like just enjoy the rest of the time I just wanted to check if you’re okay and it
was and it was really good um and then once I the day came I’m like walking into the office absolutely
petrified I’m like oh my God how is it gonna be I’ve forgotten everything
um uh but it was fine like Dojo was so lovely everyone like from people in a
people team to to to Mike to you know the new new people in in the data
organization they were just lovely they were they were just welcome me back in and and just gave me that time to
um kind of build myself up to speed a I had to learn all of the changes about
the business would come from uh being um uh well payment cents to dojo and we
launched like lots of new products so I had to learn all of that and then um learn all of the new tools so we went
from SQL and power bi to everything Google based so
um bigquery uh DBT looker so it was all new tools
um and uh yeah so I had to learn that all from scratch but they just gave me the
time and they just said you take your time Maria this is what you need to learn and they let me
um let me do that and that was so hard wouldn’t it if you didn’t have a team
that was saying that to you I mean a lot of ladies worry about coming back but I
mean that must be it must be the reality for lots of ladies that come back to that and think and you know now I’m at a
point where I might have to leave a job that I previously loved oh yeah yeah and I was I was so worried like am I
performing to where they expect am I adding value am I and especially um
because I did come back part-time that was another added factor I was like I was so worried about that like how will
it reflect how will people think I’m doing less work or um and and it wasn’t the case at all it
was just in my head um and I think that’s something I’d advise anyone like don’t don’t work
yourself off about these things because it is just in your own head um certainly at Dojo they they really
recognize working parents at work so mums and dads there’s a big like parents
community and there’s lots of active dads in our community as well so it’s it’s both
um but don’t yeah you don’t need to worry they do give you the space to come back they recognize you have been up so
I took the full year um and yeah of course you’re gonna forget stuff you know you’ve just been
changing nappies and singing nursery rhymes for you so you know you’re bringing the job
yeah so um you just need a bit but it does all come back it is a lot of it is
like muscle memory you do stuff yeah I was so worried can I remember how to write code how do I write you know
all these statements and it does come back it really does you just like practice it and keep doing it a few more
times and then and then it clicks again yeah um instead of just having that safe that safe space that that is okay and I
suppose did you feel like you you almost had to keep apologizing you know you said being part-time as well you sort of
kept thinking is this okay am I doing you know everything that they wanted me to do I suppose you you almost wanted to
keep saying I’m really sorry but naturally it just sounds like you were reassured that you don’t have to keep
apologizing being a torrent it’s not you’re still a skilled as you were before you left yeah and and that’s
another thing so I you know some mornings it would be in the first three days it would be a nightmare like
getting out the door getting ready again either dancing to nursery and then occasionally I wouldn’t log on like Dead
online it would be a little bit after and I’d be like sending my manager messages I’m so sorry I’m late I’ll make it up at the end of the day and they’re
like don’t worry about it you know like we’re not here clock watching you know we know that you’re gonna and that and and that
trust element is also really important I think that they did trust me they they
knew they knew from what because I had worked there before so they knew like
what my work was they knew I was reliable and um and so yeah they did trust me and and
I but at first I was I was always fat thought oh god I’ve got to apologize for this I apologize for that and and then
it was like no Maria just stopped doing that it was fun yeah
um from the other side as well did you how did you feel yourself coming back did you have what they would refer to as
mum guilt how did you deal with going there um yeah I did um so I was so nervous of
Japanese so I was on most of the time I was on maternity leave we were in lockdown so we didn’t have those kind of
um meet ups with other you know other mums and things like that we didn’t really go to many of those because just
as we’ve started to go to them then we had lockdown so I was really worried like
um you know my daughter hasn’t interacted really with any other babies and also she hasn’t interacted much with
my family because we were having to do a lot of long you know Zoom calls family calls and things like that so I just
thought gosh you know how is she going to be and I was really worried and then the whole thing of like I’m not with her
and but we had the like um a settling in week where you go and
you do one hour drop off and then the next day you have two hours and you build it up and from the first day she
was just waving to me like bye Mummy I’m off and then and that was it and she was
absolutely fine she was loving it and after that first week I just thought oh I know she’ll be fine and she like they
reported back that she was she really loved it she’s very social and she got straight stuck in straight away and and
so it was more like my my nerves of leaving her but actually she was fine and
so yeah so and then once you know after a few weeks and of seeing that and like on her days that she wasn’t going in
she’d be like she’d pick up a little rucksack and go to the front door and just be waiting like are we going
or Nursery so so I I then wasn’t I I kind of got over that like
nervousness sort of you know guilt um I only saw a lady yesterday on the
train and she was waving off she got on the train and I saw her she got on she was dressed for work and she was waving
back at um her little boy and I could see her like that and she’s with um I’m
assuming her grandparent and um and I could see as we pulled out this woman just looks like that that just tore her
heart out that she was leaving because she could see I could see her mouth thing are you okay and she’s thinking I
just feel Dreadful that I’m going to work and we made it to the next station
and she got off the train and I saw her run back down the platform and I was I
was always feeling for her I was like she was thinking you know what I can’t do it and she yeah she runs back down
um and probably went straight over the bridge uh and and back home so yeah it was only only yesterday and but as you
say if you if you see that your child is is happy where they’re going that’s going to help you yeah and you can get
on with and what you need to so then as a working mum what does an average work day look like for you you mean mornings
must be crazy and then what does an average work day look like yeah so
um fortunately so she’s she’s still at preschool so um that they’re open from 8 A.M until
six so it kind of covers all of my working hours so um once I do drop her off yeah the
morning is hectic you know we have oh the negotiate I’ve never thought I’ve
never realized how much you need to negotiate with a toddler um this has definitely improved my
negotiation skills I hope yeah listening skill yeah yeah so um yeah it’s our
picking the outfit it’s getting the breakfast it’s um uh doing the hair what hairstyle and this you know so you have
all of that as well as trying to get yourself ready and um and pack up so but then once we are out the door and
fortunately the where we drop her off to nurseries on route to the tube station
so it’s quite it’s quite convenient um I’d say it’s not too impactful for us
um I’m luckily my husband also works um a kind of office job and he runs his own business so he can be quite flexible on
his hours as well so we we just we’ve split it up during the week um I work four days a week
um so we do like two days each uh drop off and collection and we just have to
be a bit organized is you just have to know oh I’m doing this day or I’m doing that day um but yeah it’s yeah it’s it’s it’s
working fine so far so far I think I mean you said you have to be
incredibly organized um and you know to juggle your role and being a parent I’m
wondering about boundaries how do you set those boundaries at work and and do you did you feel like you could set set
boundaries quite easily and just say you know do you block out things in your calendar and people just kind of respect
you know you’re missing at these times if you need to do a pickup or something like that is that have you found that
yeah easy to do yeah yeah I think so so I I know when I first came back and so
the nursery have these um I think a lot of nurseries do have these apps where they upload like photos every day and
they say what your child’s eating and how they’ve what they’ve been doing and I’d be like every couple of hours I’d be
looking is there something uploaded is either okay like um and then I just realized no and they stopped doing this she’s absolutely fine
okay I can just look at the end of this day so I you know I I then soon realized no once I’m in work I’m in work and I
just just focus of course like I’ll think about her during the day but you know I won’t I won’t worry I won’t you
know um so yeah and then as soon as working day is finished or it comes to the time
I need to go and collect her then I’ll be like all right I’ll have a look at the app now I’ll see what photos are there I’ll just spend five minutes and
then I’ll I’ll go and collect her or do it on my tube home um and then once once she’s home we I I
won’t do anything work related I I think no that’s our time now we’ll spend
together we’ll do some playing we’ll have some she has another dinner she’s a big eater for sure
um and then um and then we’ll go into bed rights bedtime routine and then if there is anything that I do need to
finish for work or if I have had to for whatever reason pick her up early or I feel like I need some you know make up
some time then I’ll do that all after she’s gone to bed so that in those couple of hours that you know her mummy
is like her mummy and she’s focused and I’m focused on her and and I think that’s really important is once you are
in either work or on her if you just keep focused and then yeah I suppose that’s to your point
setting the boundaries um yes because I are you saying as well when you came back you you worked
part-time and I’ve I’ve heard people on this podcast about um setting boundaries is good for
everybody whether or not it’s the person that’s working part-time or your team that might still be working full-time
because they know where you are at what times um instead of um you know when some people take
holiday or they work part-time and they pop up on their day off and that really confuses everybody and you think it’s
actually just healthier if everybody just you know set their boundaries and and stick to them because they know what
to expect from you and yeah and they don’t expect um more from you than what you can give
and vice versa yeah um yes because it’s just getting into that routine as you said and and
sticking to it and and it’s not it’s not easy at first yeah because you have this
you have this skills both ways you have the guilt towards your child and the guilt towards work and so you feel like
oh need to be available for everyone all the time and you just have to you just
and you’ll learn it it will come and you just go think no I’ve got to set the
boundaries I’m either one or the other at this moment in time and um yeah and it does come and then you just got to be
strict with yourself and strict with others and uh yeah yes exactly yeah that
that is so and such good advice just to be strict with it um what do you think are the most
important things working parents should know about working at dojo
um I think it’s it’s that point there if you you can’t you can’t be everything
you can’t um so one one thing I
um had to interleup with this kind of imposter syndrome thing where I just I’m really worried that um I wasn’t
technically skilled as well as everyone else because they’ve all they’re either new into the business and have come for
more technical backgrounds or they’ve they’ve stayed during the time that I was on my maternity leave
and I’m the only one who’s been off and I know oh my God I’m not skilled enough and I just I just really worried about
that and then and then I thought and then you so I agonized and I just really wanted to
make sure I learned everything I’d be you know um but soon I realized in others around
me just said well but you are you are picking it up you know for how long you’ve been working on this you have got
it you are there and I and having that reassurance from others was really key
for me um for someone who’s not as confident as perhaps others might be
um so that helped build a bit of my self-belief but then also recognizing well hang on okay so I’ve I’ve got these
technical skills perhaps they’re not as uh I might be 95 of someone else or you
know whatever it is I don’t know but but actually I’ve got other skills and I’m actually really good at things like the
soft skills I’m really good at talking to stakeholders I’m really good at um
uh organizing my time I’m really good at understanding stakeholders and um
communicating so actually fine you can’t you can’t be the best at
everything but actually you are skilled at something you know and I’m particularly well skilled at that so I
think that it’s remembering not to also compare yourself to others because yes
someone will be more technically advanced than you or more technically skilled but perhaps they don’t have the
other things that you do have and um that I’m saying this from like I’m I’m
oh no at this point but um it took me a long time to like learn that in myself and my great friend George who is just
reminding me about that last night um he uh yeah it’s it’s others around
you just telling you that as well and then you’ve got to start learning and believing that in that yourself and and
yes stop the comparisons because you are valuable as an individual
um the other thing as well actually is the the thing that I struggled with was this on part-time because I started on
three days and then and then I increased to four days and like oh am I adding as much to the team am I bringing enough to
the table or is everyone else because I’m only on you know three or in four days and actually yeah I am you know if
I if if you just maybe pro-rated what others were doing yeah I’m bringing I
remember bringing enough to the table I’m bringing other things I’m um yeah so I think that you need to get
out of your head as well I do need to yeah I suppose mixed with if you having
those thoughts which are so natural and and so many of us in in Tech have imposter syndrome and we’ve had whole
webinars on it uh because so many people feel that way I suppose mixing that feeling with being at the wrong employer
um just you know mentally you just would not feel safe and you would leave yeah do you find you know you think that
perhaps you feel more loyal as an employee as well because you you were at an employer that was very supportive of
you you know going on maternity sleep and coming back and that’s made you just feel more loyal towards them
um whereas you know if you were an employer and you felt actually that was very difficult for me to do you might
now be thinking yeah I’m gonna stick this out for as long as I as I can you know maybe the
next few months and just see when the next job um takes me but was that that feeling
perhaps that you still have now um yeah definitely definitely yes I think having a supportive employer
is so so important and um having team members around you as well that are also
patient and recognize your position that’s it’s really really crucial
um and it not only for just for you just as a an individual but
always you know doing the job that you do but also developing in the job you do so
um so I when I went on maternity leave I was a bi analyst and then I came back and
um because of ways that the new the new data team was the new organization it hadn’t hugely expanded
um our roles were developing into this analytics engineer although at the time we didn’t know that wasn’t a kind of
title that we had um and I was um
I was given the opportunity so they recognized that you know you’ve just come back you’re learning all these new skills so they put me on projects that
were less time sensitive so I was still doing work for the business it was still important key work but it didn’t have
that kind of critical time um factor for like a stakeholder need
this by a certain time points so it gave me the time to like learn it and improve
on it and develop those skills and and that kind of has pivoted me into net
what is now an analytics engineer um and I think actually that’s me going on maternity
leave and coming back and being given that space to to do that that’s actually
what’s you know pivoted me into this role and perhaps maybe I wouldn’t have had the
opportunity had I not you know been on maternity leave I don’t know I’m giving you the space you probably thought
actually I can’t I can’t cope with what’s happening yeah you might have just gone elsewhere
um instead of you know just not having that time to yeah lead yourself back in yeah yeah so obviously like there’s a
there’s a big support um around you you mentioned and some people as well also just reminding you
to to remember all the good things and all the other skills uh that are great about yourself and your role do you have
a mentor that helps with that or do you do you have a wider support network um not not a mentor
um specifically not not one single person but I think there are probably a certain
few that I do lean towards and you know I’ll I’ll often seek advice from
um or you know check in um yeah my colleagues George emanuela
um in particular um and and I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily only females I think that’s
um you can you can have a a male as a mentor as well and
um uh I know just before I went on maternity leave um there’s a chap in the finance
department um Dave who he he really inspired me so he he was he’s very family focused he
recognizes the importance of that and he I remember him telling me before I went he was like don’t forget about work you just focus
on being a mum that is your most important work or job you know in your life right now
and um and you know don’t think about work and he and and he told me some lovely stories of it so he did like
shared paternity and um and that really he really inspired me actually at the time and um yeah so I
think it wasn’t having one single person but more little Network around me I
guess who I I’ve um reached out to so it sounds like um he he gave me some great
advice um and that you know you’ve got them from different areas what advice would you give yourself if you were just
starting out is there anything that you wish that somebody had told you or that you could you know go back in time and
tell yourself um before you started out in Tech and also you know before you became a mum
um yeah that’s a great question um probably it’s still it’s back to that
same point of you you can’t be everything and just reminding yourself that and um you can’t be perfect at
everything and just remembering that and as long as you’re um you know aiming towards perfecting
something an element then you’re doing a great job and and just remaining you
know knowing that you you do have to portion your time between your child and
your work but when you do like know what those boundaries are and um yeah focus and on like on the days
the day that I don’t work I’m just I’m all man you know Eva’s got me and we we
do lots of things that are just mine and hers like activities together and I think yeah that’s that’s important
um that you’re just remembering that your employer doesn’t expect you to be everything either that’s the thing yeah
it’s an unnecessary pressure that that we put on ourselves um whether you’re a parent or not there
is always I’ve had ladies on here have said when I’ve stepped up into a management role the first thought I had
was everybody expects me to know everything and it’s a ridiculous book to have because nobody expects that of you
um throughout your career and there is a team and there to support you but yeah sometimes it just takes a moment to step
back and and remember that doesn’t it I think one thing that uh being a mum or
being a parent it doesn’t necessarily give you those skills but it certainly gives you time to practice a lot of your
kind of more softer skills and those are just invaluable in their workplace you
know those are the harder things to I think learn or require fire and being a parent you will certainly practice that
a lot so so you know that’s another thing to remember is that
um you’re you’re getting that platform to practice those skills and then you can apportion more time to like
upskilling yourself technically if that’s what you want to do so yeah fabulous thank you that is a lovely um
note to end it on Maria because um we’re already out of time is absolutely flown by so thank you so much for taking the
time to come and have a chat with us today and it’s been a pleasure no thanks very much thanks for having me thank you
to everybody listening as always thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time
