Hands up if your business is motivating girls and women in STEM!
Putting women at the centre of a business strategy doesn’t sound like the hardest objective. Yet it’s managing to stump hundreds and thousands of CEOs and senior managers throughout STEM organisations; perhaps holding their businesses – and innovation – back as a result. By 2030, when 11% of the workforce is comprised of socially savvy generation alphas, diversity will have to be the norm.
Yes, change is happening, but slowly. The numbers tell us that girls are overlooking and or being overlooked to study STEM subjects and degrees. According to UCAS, 35% of STEM students in higher education in the UK are women, and only 19% of students studying engineering and technology degrees are female. The honest truth is that so many women unexpectedly find themselves in technology careers that they hadn’t realised was perfect for them.
In this episode, Sarah Friswell, CEO, Red Ant, looks at why it’s so important to tackle the women in tech issue and whether it’s time to hold businesses accountable for the lack of diversity in tech.
Sarah has been leading the charge for women in tech since joining Red Ant in 2009. She’s build a company of tech experts which is at least 59% female and she’s also a founding member of CHIEF, an organisation that supports women in leadership.
She’s featured in the top women in tech in Retail Technology Innovation Hub and is driving flexibility and opportunity for women within her organisation as well as ensuring that Red Ant engages directly with schools and colleges in workshops to motivate young people – girls in particular – to want to join the tech industry.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
hello everyone thank you for tuning in again I am Kaye bitman the content director at Chan code and today we were
asking is it time to make businesses accountable for diversity in Tech
putting women at the center of a business strategy doesn’t sound like the hardest objective yet it’s managing to
stump hundreds and thousands of CEOs and Senior managers throughout stem organizations perhaps holding their
businesses and Innovation back as a result change is happening but it is happening slow
I’ve got the wonderful Sarah friswell CEO at red ant with me today who will be looking at why it’s so important to
tackle the women in Tech issue and whether it’s time to hold businesses accountable for the lack of diversity in
Tech welcome Sarah thank you thank you so much for taking the time out to to
have a chat today um can we kick off to set the scene a little bit with a little bit of background about yourself please
yes of course yeah thank you for asking me uh to chat to today it’s such an important topic um so uh background um I
think from a a very young age I’d always been um a person that enjoyed interaction with other people and
helping other people and solving problems um my uh like a lot of people I
didn’t know what I wanted to do at 18 so chose a uh classic subject at University
which was history and again sort of now looking back take that back to looking at cycles and how people behave and how
you can you can you can change that and learn from it um I then um through a
couple of different jobs I did early on found sort of my real passion with um
account management and client management and working through those big problems with like a wider team to solve that
problem um I was uh lucky enough to do that in the like sort of my early career
with IND Direct Mail uh so sort of where digital sort of grw from so with uh
emails coming into play and onepage websites um showing my age but um and
then working in like more integrated groups so taking a big creative idea
that that point often came from advertising and then taking that into um
digital and how you took that through to ideas like the start start of like uh
like first Twitter campaigns how you used um a brand on Facebook and what
that sort of when that was first emerging in the sort of late 2000s um I worked at a number of
agencies in the UK um and then I took the plunge uh to move to uh the Middle
East in my late 20s yeah yeah that was a big now looking back I’d um uh my H
circumstances changed at home and applied for a job and within two weeks found myself accepting the role um in a
big networked agency so again that was a big step up um didn’t know anyone didn’t know anyone in the business didn’t know
anyone like at home um and I think like most people that have been in XA communities will
recognize that like the work becomes your family and then the extension you
make from there and that was that was one of the best decisions I ever made had a great time you definitely work
hard play hard um but it really opened up my experience in the Tech space um
and then after a couple of years return home to the UK and after spending spent
some time out in Argentina I was lucky enough to do that so that was exciting and I think that’s important to have
that down time as well to reflect yeah um uh found red an um and um over the
years have been supported um internally and externally and today find myself
running the business amazing quite quite the journey I I mean I wanted to ask you a
little bit about um I mean well so we know that more uh needs to be done to show women a career in Tech um uh that
it’s more than the stereotypes but I wanted to ask you a bit about what is so exciting about a career in the industry
because everything that you just said there did you did you know that it was going to be like that did you know that you would have opportunities to to move
around and and for it to be creative and did you know all of that yeah and I I
don’t like in all honesty know at that point I think uh the base of it for me
was variety and I think that that that really still exists uh the sort of
transformation from maybe going from you know a piece of digital mail to like Tech was that um ability to change
things and first of all that’s a little bit scary but actually that becomes the exciting part um I also uh recognized in
the time period that was happening that uh like start off as an integrated role but eventually a digital role um was uh
more rewarding I think like one financially but also too in terms of
what you’re able to achieve because there was um a lack of um skills and I
think it’s sad that that still exists today but there’s a lack of understanding in that area and I think
why why is can be particularly appealing is you are learning every day like I was
having a conversation one of the team last week and I think being comfortable in not knowing everything and things
changing is is really the like backbone of En enjoying this role and I think
it’s you know showcasing to a wider audience um that there there’s a lot of
like diversity in um how you think in how you operate in the people you’re
working with like we’re not lucky enough to work with some amazing clients and
again that brings in a whole other like raft of how you um operate and how you
get uh you know interact with people depending on where you’re working in the world and the type of brand it is as
well yes yeah and I don’t think a lot of people know that which is a shame yeah but you know you mentioned in there
about variety and and bringing about change and there is this misconception
about the tech industry yeah and the stereotypes that surround thatum and we
mentioned that a lot on this podcast it’s such a shame that people on the outside still have those
stereotypical Tech nerds when I when I talk in schools like
one of my good friends uh runs this amazing program that she does in some schools in Kent um I finish it’s my sort
of headline is how um account management so client management can Propel your career because it really you’re you’re
building a many business um and my last SL is this like looks completely
abstract right at the end is this amazing bathroom view in Singapore from the Ritz Carlton like looking out into
the bay and I said look I stayed here because of my account management skills
I was taken by a previous client to to stay in that hotel and help host the
clients and uh the dealership we were working with at the time and I think like I’ve been to some amazing places in
the world that definitely I wouldn’t have been to without um working in this
industry yes I I must say um my um experience when when I was in my 20s and
i’ I’d was um still traveling quite a lot around conferences and things exactly that tech companies they always
put you up in nice places and you go to big conferences with lots of really big
you know successful um uh businesses that are there and it’s such an experience and such an eye opener um for
for a young person person to you know think actually I know more people know that actually if you worked in Tech you
would travel the world for free most of the time so people need to know yeah and
I think Onna um just as your um like growth as just as a person like the
experience so many other cultures that you might not experience like even in
London okay it’s diverse but just living and breathing in um like a melting Port
like the UAE you know I’d spent like I said I’d spent a lot of time studying history but even
being immersed in how those cultures work together and even watching the buying habits of certain you know uh
nationalities because what they’d been through in their home country like it was it’s so like interesting like again
because I love people and how that behaviors and Tech and how that works together it really is um yeah it’s hard
to describe I think unless you’re living through that yes yeah and why do you think it’s so
important to get more women and diversity in the tech industry yeah um I yeah I think
diversity um and women is a big part of that is important because especially for
what we do so we design products that are used in store um and if you only
have a certain type of people it’s like one site like nothing is one size fits
all you’re not you’re not um benefiting from that diversity of thought you’re
not it’s like doing something in a Cupboard on your own so I think in your
workplace you really have to reflect the you know the consumer or the user if
it’s a business case that is outside in the world um I
also try not to work in stereotypes but I think there is a um uh like emotional
intelligence that can come with that diversity or um just thinking outside
the box and thinking about well like and even the basis when you’re working with
tech like about edge cases if you’ve all been to like we always say we don’t hire
in that cookie cutter approach like you hear in some companies where you have to have been to Oxbridge and you need to
have studied X well all that means is you have lots of people thinking the same because they’ve probably studied in
the same place but actually the world is very different now and I think diversity
of thought and there’s lots of studies around this isn’t there like diversity of thought is and having that from
making sure you gel as a team is crucial yes and to reflect your customer base as
well I mean most of the time companies were to look at their customer base and think does my team actually reflect what
these people want and what they need probably not so how can you as you said
have that um emotional intelligence where you know you work as a team to create something that your customer base
really needs and will keep coming back and and purchasing um you would think it would be a no-brainer to try and match
your customer base but our companies get that wrong yeah yeah and even like you
can you know you can do your QA for instance in a closed group of people that have been working on this project
for ages and opening that out to like the store associates that using it or
like we do a lot of work in the beauty vertical like going out to the counters and making sure like it’s intuitive to
them it might be intuitive to you because you’re on your phone like 10 hours a day but to the store associates
like what what how do you make sure that what you’ve designed you know makes sense without yes there’s training but
makes sense is making their job easier because at the end of the day it needs to be a tool that helps them sell more
rather than I’ve got to you I’ve got to use and again it know it’s it gets a
wider Banner of the use of Technology it’s just something that you think oh put that down it’s not important and
technology in any capacity should be an enhancer rather than a problematic issue
yes exactly yes and to get more um diversity intake obviously um one one of
those uh to ways to solve that is to encourage more girls from a younger age um as well to to consider careers in
that area but girls often overlooking stem subjects or they’re being
overlooked um when it comes to to studying St stem subjects so how can we
encourage more girls uh to let them know that these subjects could be for them
yeah yeah so I think I think a core part of it is to be really clear that it’s
more than just code codee’s really important and I think there’s been so
much done around like encouraging girls to code and there’s so many great Grassroots but actually in the tech base
there’s all these other roles that are technical as well that sit around that so you know like I think it’s being
really clear that um what are the opportunities you have there how if
you’re not particularly technical like but you like problem solving and you
understand a diagram can do that how do you bring that on I think represent
ation is key um I think schools have a
responsibility to ensure that they’re bringing in speakers or uh stories of um people that
have been and it doesn’t I don’t think it’s like um you know uh Karen Brady
level success but I think it’s like your average um you know female CEO that
exists in the UK how it’s quite hard to relate to a Karen Brady as well isn’t it
like you just sh yourself in the F even if you could secure yeah yeah and I think just going in talking quite openly
that it’s not it it doesn’t mean you have to have been you know coding in your bedroom since you were five and
that you know like we were saying about traveling the world there is there are the more um client facing um like uh
supporting roles uh D like business-based roles that can do and I think the main issue at the moment is
there’s not enough um understanding like most people could probably explain to you a
structure within I don’t know a supermarket for instance and they’d say you know you work on the shop floor and
then you might be a supervisor then your store manager and then but I think within the text base be obviously
because it’s evolving a lot there’s not a common understanding probably from parents as well like the average
person it’s still a bit mythical and black magic and and how do we all do that I mean I one of my um aims and need
to make time for this is is is creating some sort of like um asset whether
that’s a podcast for people to tell their stories because I think storytelling is one of the most powerful
ways that you can um normalize it like
we’ve got an ex-client who I keep in contact with who’s done amazingly well and her story is really simple like she
came to London from the north with A1 pound in her pocket so and and I think
that just that for if you’re a school in school that makes it like achievable for
you whereas if they were to see her now they’d be like oh how do you get to that
and I think that’s that that progression from being at school or university to
the outcome and yes it takes you know 20 odd years um but I think like the
Stepping Stones of that are really vital yes definitely and and we’re sping about
that on here in terms of Role Models as well and making sure that within a company you have Role Models at all
levels of the company because like you said it is really hard to relate to somebody that’s very successful we all
want to aim to that um but if you’re a graduate and you’re thinking I can’t
really aspire to be the CEO you need to see somebody that’s at least in middle management and you need to see that you
know that’s um a successful female leader um they need to be at all levels
um as well as you know going into schools and just being visible um is is so important um I mean we spoke about a
little bit um we touched upon it a little bit then um about uh what more can be done to show women and girls a
career in Tech is a viable option because and quite honestly I the ladies that I’ve had on this podcast so many of
them say I fell into Tech and when I when I ask them about how did you get into Tech well I fell into Tech and I
hear it so often um and I think that is definitely one of the things that needs
to be done isn’t it just making sure that women um who work in Tech are more visible and realize as well that they
have a really good story to share a lot don’t realize they have a good story to share yeah yeah yeah I think there’s um
like in terms of a mechanic one of things that I’ve been thinking about as we plan for next year because our year
starts in October is around um like I’m really lucky that I’ve got some other
women in the business as you say at different levels who are really passionate about that and like pledges
like I don’t quotas are difficult but I think if businesses can pledge to do things and it’s underpins how they are
as a business like we have um one of our pillars is around our own people but we
have other pillar around the community um which is called philanthropy uh
useful it’s got the ant in it we do we do lots with the schools in
souk and I think like how do we extend that to make that more actionable and
wider than just the area we’re in um in terms of um the I suppose awareness of
of of where we go to like extend that out I think it I think it’s difficult I think I recently was listening to a
webinar around um how women operate in the
workplace and I think that um there was uh this amazing woman she was very
senior within Morgan Stanley and she said what she tells uh the women that
she like mentors and works with is that um like women are always obsessed with
performance and that and that’s what you need to do to progress yourself um but what the men also spend a lot of time
doing you know rightly so is about the networking and they will make sure that
and interestingly when we’re discussing that in the groupo in uh one of the
ladies there um is a recruiter and like executive Search and she said most men
will always find a job through another man whereas the women have been had their head down so much proving to do
the job they haven’t necessarily um built the network so I think and I
include myself in this I don’t think we help ourselves necessarily and I think there is um we haven’t quite within the
tech space in the UK um really worked out or cracked how we come
together I think there is so much going on you know it’s toughs right now are
tough um so most people are slightly preoccupied than they would have been
maybe two three years ago um but how do we make that time VI via a pledge via
activating a group that is just you know that opportunity to sit around and chat
um rather than just helping individually how do we create a bit of critical mass yes yes I I I love that it’s it’s
so important just to be um mindful of of those things and um again with you know
in a the Next Generation that are are coming in as well um to to the workforce
obviously do you think that diversity is going to become more of a priority as as
things move on or take a back scene yeah no I I do think it I think
that we have to be more mindful because yeah I think in the size of business we
are we don’t have to worry about that too much but in bigger businesses obviously there’s priorities and and
things like that can naturally slip off the agenda and I think it’s our responsibility to make sure it doesn’t I
think that you said pledge as well before because you’re absolutely right even that tweak in language can can
really change a mindset and and when you set targets for a company they’re going
to fall short nine times out of 10 but when you set pledges you know and as you said they underpin everything then
change really starts to happen sometimes that’s just a small tweak in language
yeah I think also the other reason that it’s not going to and this is really
refreshing is that the uh you know new people coming into um the industry are
that’s a prerequisite like often when we’re interviewing um there is questions or
comments around the philanthropy group and what we’re doing within the community what is important around
values and you know it’s the tech world’s pretty competitive and I think if you are
constantly uh chasing the dollar as such rather than creating that workplace that
is ethical um think wants to work in the right way is diverse then you will soon
start to see uh the best candidates drop off if you aren’t considering that yes
yes definitely yeah yeah just being mindful of you know what even having an area that you know like red does that is
just dedicated to being mindful as well and speak to some people on here and they don’t measure what they’re doing
either you know they think it’s just kind of things will just magically happen you know and nobody’s actually
taking any notice even to measure what you’re doing and whether it’s successful um a lot of companies even forget even
even to do that um yeah but on that now what what do you think uh what can and
should businesses be doing to improve diversity in their Workforce
um I think the first point is to be aware I think there is we need to be
aware of the layer beneath the tick boox exercise I think we as women are
responsible for making sure that like a lot of the help most of the help
actually I had was from from other men and I think that should change I think as women we need to be making sure we’re
bringing the next you know layer of women up with us as such um I think that
we in the right way It’s Tricky but I think in the right way we need to question if you don’t see that balance
in other businesses you work with um and I think that you know when you get into
that sort of B Corp space of really making sure that you work with other
businesses that share the same value as you um and I think it’s it’s too easy
to um it’s not an HR issue it’s a business issue and it’s something that
underpins what you do and I think whether that’s in um a positive thing
you see happening in a client or a supplier or if that’s something that needs to be called out called out um as
the leader of the business you need to be like it’s not just all everything’s external and you’re you know having a
great time talking on podcast that you actually um live those values that
you’re talking about yes I love that that you just said there it’s not a HR
um problem it’s it’s it’s it’s a business issue because you’re absolutely right if that also comes down to who
writes the job spec and and you know even the language that you use in a job spec can attract different candidates
and that’s actually coming from a middle manager and they’re thinking I’d love some diversity or I’d love to change my
team up just being mindful of what what you you writing that and what you then pass to HR or if it’s HR just using your
bog standard you know going out for whatever job it is you’re constantly going to get the same po of candidates
so yeah yeah yeah Cindy Gallup has some great advice on that is that if you want
to change how things have always been you need to CH change your spec to not
say five years experience because some of these groups that you’re trying to reach she
she references black women that will not have five years experience because they haven’t to this point been given the
break so you need to change your language to say you know has um you know
um wants to change the status quo what has lots of ideas that haven’t been able
to bring to fruition because by putting that you know top bullet point must have
five years experience you’re removing that whole poll um and I think that’s
really important to go through and just make sure that you know as a as a step
change anything you’re advertising um feels accessible yes yes
yeah just again just being Mindful and and not putting out the same thing and wondering why you have this problem and
it’s not being solved magically overnight um how can we hold businesses
accountable for the lack of diversity do you think good question um
I think there’s daytoday um activities um I think I think it’s a
tough challenge is um when as a woman you need to get your
point across and you are operating a space that’s mainly men that you don’t make
everything like a women’s issue like I think that is
I’ve seen that eye roll several times so they go oh was another women’s meet not
helping anyone saw your women in text article and it’s like you do realize there’s an
actual problem here um so I I think it’s I think it’s calling that out and I
think we have I think if you believe passionately in it you also need to
appreciate there’s time needed to educate um whether that’s through stats
whether that’s through personal stories to really bring that issue to life um I
think you and that can be on a you know having a drink and awards due and just
saying you know what H did you see what happened earlier and a lot of the time there’s it’s it’s not turning a blind
eye that it’s just not seen so I think you it has to be like approached in the
right way I think there’s ensuring that that’s not happening in your own business um that there’s not like layers
being added onto situations um I think it’s
supporting uh women at like important stages so in terms of um whether that’s
through uh when they come to be new moms um whether like later in life whether
they need a bit more support when they’re going through life changes I and I think one of the key things is um
making sure that like policies as BAS as it sound making sure that policies are
um almost like open source like I think especially with something like menopause policy people are like scrabbling around
saying oh what do we do here and there’s a few seminars but if you truly believe in that just giv myself an idea but if
you truly believe in that why not say like this is my like who else needs this like would you like to use this like and
I think there’s that element of transparency about this is a policy but
it’s there to help you not just to protect it’s not about protecting the
business it’s about giving the individual the information they need so they’re not sat thinking what’s your
view on this and so they can just get on and do their job yeah and I agree
because I think even before you get in a business the a lot of the younger generation they they ask those questions
now as well they want to be in a more diverse Workforce and they want a culture that feels and everybody’s
welcome so you know if you’re if you’re not creating that as a business as you said you know you said about making sure
that those don’t those things don’t happen in your own business that that you’re working in also because the
people that you’re going to attract in that makes such a difference they’re going to be asking those questions and
you can’t answer them because you have seen problems and you haven’t you know tried to make a difference yourself and
think well I’m always going to be in this culture you know we’re never going to attract uh the right candidates yeah
and I think because we’re 70% women It’s Not Unusual sometimes that in an interviewing panel it will all be women
and sometimes especially when we’re having to do everything virtual we try and do like a split these days so people
at least you know see the culture they’re going to be working in sometimes you visibly see people sort of lean back
and and a lot of women say oh it’s great to be interviewed by some women today and I think it’s not that um it’s not
it’s bad to be interviewed by a man but if probably they’ve been through four interviews and only seen men it is quite
a St difference yes yes and somebody on that panel that you can identify with
makes such a difference uh to your interview and we are almost out of time but I wanted to ask you quick do you
have any advice for our listeners who were possibly thinking about a career in Tech terms of there something you wish
somebody had told you yeah I I I think work experience is
tough these days right with hybrid working because funny enough we’ve got someone here doing work experience this week and normally we’d say yeah come in
for the week but now it’s like well we’re in the office these days but despite that I would say talk ask for as
many coffees as you can like I went to a great um I think like it was about
probably about 10 years ago but I went to a talk and this woman just said put your hand up and I have coffee with two
of you just randoms just to give them advice about I think this was social media cont content but I think I think
most people will if you send them a note will have a coffee with you and
give you some advice so just ask for advice try and get some work experience under your belt because it is even the
industry itself is diverse you need to sort of know what you’re interested in
um and yeah I think just absorb as much content as you can like a like a podcast
like this just you’ll hear like a diverse group of of people talking in different roles and different Industries
and and really understand yeah and try it out I think the world is has shifted
in the fact that you you don’t have a job for life these days and so if you
and take time interviewing uh I think a mistake that I’ve always made like I go for an interview and I fall in love with
the job uh but what I’m seeing is more regular now is like just to be a little
bit more like okay I couldna go speak to these people and speak to these people
family friends friends whoever it is like use LinkedIn like what can you
understand I think you know depending how much um sway there is or interest
from your school like whether it’s via your parents like put put some pressure
on the schools to get people in to tell their stories I think the most inspiring
thing that I wish I’d heard more of was real life stories rather than some
careers book where it’s you know oh you’re going to be a journalist or a hairdresser like it it’s just like one
extreme to the other and I think life like that and I think um I’m sure careers tests of that that that ilk
still exists but I think yeah the most inspiring and meaningful
um like interactions you can have are by listening to someone yes I and that you
mentioned there about um you know when you interview not falling in love with the first job that is
absolutely correct especially so when you’re a graduate it’s a different feeling is it you’re trying to just get
a job anywhere and I suppose it’s taking a step back because you’re thinking you interview an interview because you
haven’t got the experience you’re just desperate for a job anywhere but actually that first job that you land
will make such a such an impact on the rest of your career if you land in the wrong place it could really knock your
confidence or it could really turn you off for instance a career in Tech if that’s what you really wanted so I
suppose it’s just being mindful of that and just thinking you know what I can I do have a bit of time to pick the right
company and pick the right culture and instead of just thinking like I did I just I just need a job and I’m I’m just
gonna apply everywhere and please just take me yeah and I I think I do think
you um train your gut over time but I do think most people have got a good gut
and I think if you go into interview and you’re made to feel uncomfortable or you
this is a very basic word but you don’t like the person that’s not very likely
going to be the place for you like you need to be in an environment where someone wants to invest in you wants to
spend time um and I think sometimes you can write that off and say oh I’ll get
in there and I’ll work at what I’m doing or this is ex compan and I really want
to work here if if you are meeting your line managers and you have that expectation like go with your gut um
because what you don’t want to do is make a series like I do believe like
you it’s easier to move around these days but you still like you said that first job you really want to get your
groundings um and you know the reverse of that is we you know that common
saying people by people you are interviewing them as much as they’re interviewing you
and I always start off our interviews saying that and I think if that’s not the case there’s not that balance
there’s not that respect there’s not going to be the investment in time there’s not going to be that like
continuity of um I suppose oversight to help you grow um
so yeah I had I had really when I first came back from Dubai I had a terrible
interview and I was really gutted um but in hindsight that wasn’t it wasn’t the right role for me because that I
wouldn’t have that wasn’t the right environment it wasn’t the right person to work for and I think it if it takes
years to sometimes appreciate that but I think yeah it’s important to trust your G yes and that is lovely advice um to
end it on because we’re already out of time thank you so much Sarah for coming and um sharing your story um today I
know um our listeners will find it um really insightful so thank you so much for for coming on thank you thanks a lot
it was great and to everybody listening as always thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next
time
