There are more CEOs named Peter leading the top UK companies than there are female CEOs in total. This speaks to a widespread issue of gender diversity in the tech industry but when we compound barriers faced by women with the intersectional characteristic of race, the outcomes are more dire.
It’s no secret that the technology industry has a diversity problem.
On today’s show, we’re joined by Almarni Khan, Inclusion & Diversity Programme Manager at GBG, the digital identity experts.
Almarni shares her own experiences and the challenges that women of colour continue to face, what needs to done, and why we need to challenge the existing structures within businesses to ensure they are inclusive to all. It is critical that women in tech are supported to claim their own space and grow and develop throughout their careers.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
hello everyone thank you for tuning in as always I am Kaylee batesman the content director at chican code and
today we’re discussing how women of color can get ahead in Tech when it’s built for white mouse there are more
CEOs named Peter leading the top UK companies and there are female CEOs in
total this speaks to a widespread issue of gender diversity in the tech industry
but when we can pan barriers faced by women with the intersectional characteristic of race the outcomes are
more dire today I’m joined by The Fabulous Armani Khan inclusion and diversity program manager at gbg to
share her own experiences challenges that women of color continue to face and
what needs to be done welcome Armani hi thank you so much for having me thank you for coming on I appear to be having
tongue twist issues today Armani I apologize for anything no I hope it’s
not contagious I know it might be because it’s the end of the week um but we’d love to pick up and with a
little bit of background about yourself um if that’s okay how you got into the industry and just to set the scene yeah
of course um I mean I’d love to say that it was by Design and some perfectly executed
career strategy on my part uh it was not it was purely by chance I came from a
background in terms of studying um more humanitarian I studied a
criminology and psychology um and I’ve always worked mainly customer facing
um people focused I even did a bit of my career when I was trying to find out
what I wanted to do with the Metropolitan Police Force as an officer um so how I ended up in Tech was I came
across a small startup that were looking for um facilities coordinators and office
management and I was always quite good in that with a background in the
serviced office industry and shortly after I joined that startup which was the tech startup they were
acquired by gbg and again found myself working for this much
larger tech company but in a Central Services role so facilities admin where
a lot of women find themselves been working for tech companies um and I’ve been there for six years now
uh seven years now I’ve been there for seven years now and
um have just developed through various opportunities that have Arisen being able to identify those opportunities
also put myself forward for them um but yeah it’s just been a chance
thing opportunities that have arose and that I’ve taken um taken on yeah I we um we always start
on here is how people go into their Tech Career um because it’s always so interesting to
hear that a lot of ladies all in the tech space and it’s interesting that you
said that you started with um studying criminology and and you worked a little bit with the Met police is that
something that you had seen because we we always say here you can’t be what you can’t see and if you see that a lot as a
child for instance so you know it kind of subconsciously goes in and you you start going off in that direction and a
lot of ladies were here you don’t you don’t see things about the tech sector and Tech careers you know is that is
that something that you saw when you were young oh absolutely um I have to say on off the back a
number of my family are in the police uh and so that’s something growing up admiring them having them as role models
and being like Oh yeah I could totally do that and having that spoken into me at a young age they’d be like oh yeah
you would love this or you could do this just having someone say that to you you could do days at an age where and I
don’t know what it’s like now um if my age away in terms of schools but at a time being in school where we
didn’t really get much of that um that exposure to what is out there what are the possibilities you’re kind
of stuck in that Echo chamber of what you are exposed to
um and and a lot of people like you said it’s it’s what they see and that could be through family friends but also TV
um you know I watched a lot of like Criminal Minds and Law and Order and that kind of stuff I was just like oh
yeah they’re the good guys I could I could do that um so yeah and and also it’s a lot about
people and communicating um and and growing up where I did a lot
of that uh being in from a religious background um with our church communicating a lot preaching and stuff that came a second
nature to me so it was a combination of skills that I had had developed from a young age communication into personal
skills as well as what I was exposed to kind of led me into that initial career but then also realizing that those
skills were not fixed in those careers and that they were transferable into
other areas so then getting into serviced offices uh which is again lots of um working with people managing
people and supporting problem solving and then somehow finding
out through a random opportunity that that actually applies in Tech in the tech space as well I can’t think of a
more important skill to have than problem solving yes I love the fact that you said that those skills weren’t fixed
either that’s something that we Panic about when we’re young isn’t it you have to be a career you have to know what you’re doing by at least GCSE and
um anything after University you’ve kind of missed the boat on being able to still choose what you want to do
absolutely absolutely it’s it’s the I think it’s the biggest lie of our childhood is that you have to decide at
40 when you’re still asking whether or not you can go to the bathroom or not you have to decide what what you want to
be and how and and just and figure the plan out I’m a lot older than 14 and I’m
I’m still figuring out yes yes I completely agree
um and today we’re going to be talking um about the challenges um for women of color can we kick off
with can you highlight what are some of the challenges for women of color in the tech space
oh goodness um there are a number um I mean firstly it’s just accessing
the text space uh accessing the text space has its own Insidious and more
overt barriers um you could have barriers that you don’t realize are there until you start
your your your journey into it like uh organizational policies that discriminate against the way you look
and you’ve got those those dress code policies those professional appearance
policies um the the just like we said earlier the lack of role model representation this
is more of a an unconscious barrier that you don’t realize you have not seeing the representation
um of people that look like you in Tech or at the right levels in Tech May shut
you off for the possibility that that is a place that you belong um and and though those are the
Insidious ones the ones we don’t realize whether you’ve got more overt barriers like actual gender or racial bias and
discrimination which is still there it was only recently that I read about a tech company Arthur Grand Tech
um and they were slammed publicly they’ve been all over the headlines for having a job posting that specifically
asks for only white U.S citizens so yeah that that’s that was the head
title was just like and they like to say that it was accidentally posted and it should never have gone the fact of the
matter is it was still part of your candidate profile um and whilst there was no gender
specification on that vacancy it did they only say only white us they didn’t say male or female you can kind of take
a guess as to it doesn’t take much kind of wandering to consider what they were
expecting in terms of who would fill that role so when it comes to women of color
seeing those kind of headlines um even just one it reaffirms that existing
belief that you know this is not somewhere that you belong this is not a place that you’re supposed to be in and
that’s all of that is before you’ve even got into the tech space yeah so once you’re in the tech space then being a
minority in that space being in a minority anywhere is difficult but being an identity in the space that we work
and if you think about pre-covered where we were working how many hours in the week did we spend there that comes with
so much of well we call it emotional tax a mental tax
um dealing with the the microaggressions the micro invalidations you know that
requires you to extend energy into masking and second guessing yourself you
know being a little less who you authentically are to try and fit in
um chips away at your well-being and it will lead to uh burnout it will lead to
low morale it will lead to productivity issues so that’s why you then end up
losing the talent so that’s that leads to a retention issue for women of color
in the tech space as well so getting in is hard enough and then once you’re in it’s really hard to stay there
um and we know from the statistics that are out there um you could look at really any McGregor
um Smith report any McKenzie report where it talks about um racial disparities when it comes to
Promotions and progression being in the space having to deal with all of those things that we’ve just covered on top of
the fact that even as a woman forget just being a woman of color but as a woman you’re less likely to be promoted
than being a woman of color as well on top of that that extra layer of diversity means that the likelihood of
you being promoted is um even less so that feeling that you have no career
trajectory um will lead to a lot of women again leaving the workforce leaving the tech
Workforce yeah I I love everything you just said because you’re absolutely right it’s not there
there are two there are two main barriers as you said just getting in is one and then once you’re in there are
completely different barriers and once once you’re in I mean in terms of getting into the industry as well I’ve
had this discussion with um ladies before and and Ladies of color before who have said you know sometimes you go
to an interview and there’s just nobody there that looks like you so how you know if everybody there is a white male
how do they relate to you and it’s been said before that you know people tend to
hire what they know and they they just they can’t relate so you know it’s and
it works both ways that you’re not going to feel comfortable either going for an
interview thinking I can’t relate to anybody here is this even the company for me is the other thing that you’re
going to be thinking um and then as you said once you get in I love this time you mentioned second
guessing yourself because I think that’s something especially as women we do anyway and we’ve had whole webinars on
on the Imposter syndrome topic of um you know just feeling like you you don’t
belong anybody and that second guessing yourself at work is just such such a damn dangerous place to get into and
like you said you know if you’re a woman of color and you’re you’re constantly feeling you know every day there might
be those those small things that happen but you just you just can’t put your finger on it and as you said it would
just wear down and it will gradually wear you down and and you leave um which is a shame because obviously
the industry is growing out for really good talent um what more needs to be done do you
think we’ve discussed obviously there are a series of challenges trying to get into the industry and then we’re not in
the industry what do you think can be done um there is plenty that business can do
is any of it easy no no does it happen quickly does it happen overnight
absolutely not when we’re talking about inclusion um equality Equitable practices which is
very very different from equality um those those are cultural changes they
are changing belief structures embedded um established routines and changing a
culture i i liken it very much to turning a cruise liner happens very very slowly at first and
then all of a sudden before you’ve realized that you’re a 180. um but it is just hanging on and I think
what a lot of businesses have done in the past and I’m talking pre-2020 um
is looked at inclusion diversity as a really nice thing to have this is a
great thing that we can have to bolster things this is a nice little separate on the side thing that we can that we can
tap into as in when it you know we’ve got the resources or the extra budget or what have you if there is such thing as
extra budget especially nowadays um but what businesses need to start
doing and I think some have start doing is viewing inclusion and diversity as part of their major strategic efforts
this should underpin um every other aspect of the business it
should not be an add-on or an author for it should be so integrated into everything that you do that it becomes a
natural part of your operations um to the point where it should be treated as the same as any other aspect
of the business if you have kpis targets or objectives or whatever it is for
sales for product for brand you should have that for your inclusion Diversity Program it should be measurable it
should be auditable think smart goals and that’s how businesses can start to
really see a change and a big part of that is data like um if you look at
any successful framework for inclusion diversity for making change what you
need first is an understanding of where you’re at um and so obtaining representative
accurate and relevant data data captured or a level granular enough for it to
capture necessary elements for the organizational structure those kind of things are key for helping organizations
to identify one what they’re doing really really well because that’s equally important organizations need to
know this is what we’re doing really well this is what’s keeping our people this is what’s helping us to attract that talent that we want and let’s keep
doing that but then also here’s where we’re failing here’s where we’re not doing so well here where the gaps are
then you can use that data to develop the targeted and reasonable
but ambitious objectives that you need to then move the dial
you know sometimes that’s just been you know a company most companies they’re very good if somebody holds the mirror
up to them and says actually this is where you’re at you know she said this is being it’s been very honest to to you
know find a way forward from there um the fact that you said nice to have oh my gosh I mean as you know she can
code as a as a community our partners that we work with you can
you can quickly tell the partners that are you know occasionally we do get the few that are ticking a box and then you
get uh the majority 95 of our fabulous partners are there because they know
they they need to put you know um a good amount of effort behind their diversity strategy it’s not just
chucking some budget at something and expecting magic to happen um but you you’re absolutely right it’s
still considered one of those nice to haves and yeah and that’s the thing our
partners suddenly think you know they they know they get it they realize it’s far more than that and that’s the thing
um when you’ve actually start doing the work you realize that inclusion and
diversity goes it doesn’t happen based on intent a lot of these businesses even though that five percent that I haven’t
quite got this I haven’t quite got it yet they might have the best intent their intention is right we want to have
more diversity we want to have this in inclusive Workforce we want to have that but inclusion doesn’t happen for your
intent inclusion the diversity they are outputs of design you have to design
um programs processes infrastructure to support that culture that you want so
saying yes we’re going to be more inclusive without actually doing anything about it with no action yeah is
is false yes and without seeing it as well come from the top down
um is such a problem as well you’re right it’s not just a oh you know this bolt-on department come up with this
idea but it’s not reflected in leadership and nobody actually sees it um it’s it’s far more than that it has
to be embedded in a culture um and obviously come from from leadership
I’m do you think that the technology industry is doing enough to promote female representation in Tech
no simply loaded questions it is simply put are we doing enough
no and that’s only because there’s so much more we could be doing we are doing
stuff there is definite progression that’s happened and absolutely we found ourselves in a brilliant position
pre-covered the pandemic did take a bit of a knock on the progress
that we had made however progress had been made um but the fact of the matter is is that
again if you look at the the data uh McKinsey shows that out of every 100 men
that are promoted to a tech manager only 52 women are and whereas if you look at
it for just general managerial roles and take the tech away it’s 86 women for
every 100 men so there is a massive disparity in terms of How High women can
climb this ladder in in Tech so we need to do a much better better job at fixing
this this broken wrong philosophy um or phenomenon rather that’s happening
this broken wrong phenomena because this is what’s um causing an issue when it comes to one
promoting female Talent within Tech promoting that representation but then
also that has a knock-on effect on how well we can promote a female representation to the Next Generation
outside of tech we are unable to promote what we can’t what we we’re unable to
promote where we’re not kind of thing to those who are looking for that role model who are those who
are looking for representation to almost for the the guidance that yes they belong in Tech uh so if we’re failing to
promote um female representation in Tech then we’re causing a cyclical long-term issue
whereby we then fail to get in the talent that we’re looking for yeah
the fact I love that you said the guidance um that to make them feel that you
belong in Tech um is something that I don’t think I’ve heard before because not a lot of people
probably feel that way but you’re right it’s um as well you
know I suppose changing um the feeling uh that that people how they feel every day when when they come
to work um how can individuals challenge
organizations to ensure they’re inclusive is this is this also
I don’t know where people feel that that it’s they they don’t want to challenge organizations as well or how how do they
how do individuals address that well I mean firstly organizations should be the
onus I think is on the organization um as well because I think they should be making this easy there should be very
very clear distinct Avenues and processes um that individuals can take to
challenge um organizations to raise uh qualms issues concerns or even just to
highlight um changes and policies that they feel aren’t inclusive or don’t benefit them
there should also be a way for individuals um to challenge organizations on
accountability and organizations can preempt that because I
think we’ve entered this era particularly now particularly after 2020 George Floyd black lives matter and so
many companies took a stance and there is a lot less patience and Grace we’re seeing from
society towards organizations who have made these bold claims and I haven’t
done anything to stand by them so what organizations need to do is they
need to Showcase um because a lot of them are doing things it’s just that no one quite wants
to put their head above the parapet first um in terms of like you know protecting themselves and reputational damage which
is all understandable from an organization’s point of view um but a lot of them are actually doing a lot it’s just that they’re not
shouting about it so making it clear to individuals this is what we’re doing this is how we’re we’re how well we’re
doing on our objectives on our Targets this is where we’re at this is what we
we hope to see in the future and this is how we’re going to do it all of those things are perfectly fine and I think
what you’ll find is that there’ll be a lot less challenges um when organizations start to do that
um but individuals can challenge in a number of ways uh for example in gbg we
have very very clear Avenues on how team members can um
ask questions and raise queries about what what we’re doing in terms of
inclusion and diversity one of the ways is through our Champions group so they
are our team members who are passionate about all things inclusion and diversity and they volunteer their time and skills
to help develop these Network groups and these Network groups are based around all the different facets of
um diversity characteristics that we look at so age gender race religion nationality location sexual orientation
neurodiversity and so on um and so team members can reach out directly to our Champions to ask
questions to raise queries to share issues and the Champions will help them through it and we’ve actually had some
changes and processes within the business due to just those conversations
um another way that gbg do this and I think it’s fantastic because it’s completely transparent open and it’s very very
regular is through our bi-weekly webinars so our CEO and our chief people
officer um hold regular webinars I think every fortnightly
for all of our Global team to join um and they talk kindly about updates
within the business and then they open the floor and our team can ask questions about anything and everything
um doesn’t matter what it could be something local and social it could be something to do with business uh it
doesn’t matter and our CEO and CPO will answer their questions so that’s another great way but I think if individuals
really want to make sure that they’re challenging um organizations they should make sure that they are
realistic on what they want and focus more on what they want to see as opposed to what they don’t want to see because
then it’s something that you’re giving the business what you want as opposed to not what you don’t want that’s not a
solution tell them what you want and try and Garner as much support as possible because if you’re noticing an issue it’s
likely others around you are as well um so yeah there’s plenty of ways they can do that yeah and all of those are
very creating a culture with a safe space that you’re allowed to have a voice but there won’t be any any
comeback as well we um I I had a lady on on this podcast recently and you just
mentioning um George George of Floyd there um she said at the time we wanted to
send a message to our employees um that were working in that area in the US to make sure that everybody you know
felt safe um and she said we thought we were doing the right thing by sending a message out
to everybody and one of um a black employee came back and said
um uh that she was um disappointed to see that the company
didn’t just reach out to the black employees to check how they’re feeling
because it was actually them that that you know she said it should have been us that you should have been focusing on
um and our families in that area at the time and the lady that I was interviewing she said to me I was
mortified that we had made such a mistake but I was so pleased that she
felt she was in a safe environment that she could point out our mistake and she so I was she said I was sort of you know
feeling like I can’t believe we made such a mistake but fantastic that she feels like she works in a great culture
and she can she can speak up and say that and so when we learn from that mistake
um and she we obviously would handle things differently but um that as you have said with about
steering the ship if that doesn’t happen overnight for employees to feel that they can speak up about something that
they’ve seen um as she said even having you know your leadership team be
um you know that approachable and that are available to everybody you feel like you could just throw any question out to
the floor good or bad and they’re not going to but you know nobody’s going to mute them on that webinar
um if they’re going to get an honest answer exactly and it’s all anonymized so it’s a case if you can ask and you
don’t worry about any backlash and you know what my heart goes out to that poor poor lady because
it is difficult kind of thing I wish there was a singular right answer when
it comes to creating that safe space and yes we can say broadly well this is kind
of what we want to create but every organization is different and every individual within that organization has different needs so it is a lot of trial
and error and you know what you want to say is you did a great job with the fact that you even addressed it because you could say listen that’s a social issue
we’re a business that’s got nothing to do with us but you understand that organization understood that you don’t leave who you are at the door when you
go to work you have to bring your whole selves to work um and so yeah hopefully it was an
opportunity to learn uh what that team needed and whereas that team needed I I
if anything I would have been like absolutely we should done a broader comms and then a more targeted comms
um so that way you know you counter both but it’s a it is very much that turning of the the ship
um The Learning Happens slowly so when challenging also be aware that these
things you know even if an organization is committed to making change based on your challenge it’s not going to happen
overnight these things are a matter they’re massive machines numerous Parts
moving all together as one when it comes to you know running an organization so these things might take time for you to
actually see the change so a little bit of Grace is good as well
um because we’ve endured the pandemic Mass resignation quite quitting
um and now a huge number of tech layoffs do you think um
do you think this is having a negative impact on diversity um in Tech quite a few things that have
happened recently so oh gosh with covid and the ensuing mess
that were the following years to come like yeah diversity insect seems to be pushed aside uh for some companies so
she said it can be it was a nice to have previously but with lots of you know other things happening yeah it can be
pushed aside so again I mean you did see it in 2020 with the George Floyd and
then the covid and the lockdowns the first thing to go in a lot of businesses were the nice to haves it was the social
stuff and it was uh the DI efforts I mean I have to take my hat off to gbg because
or when the lockdown happened that’s when they decided to formalize it went from being a nice to have to a must-have
for them so it was the complete opposite and it’s when I took over program manager role for inclusion and diversity
so before it was a nice to have it set alongside the social um group but then I formalized it and
actually developed a strategy because gbg decided Well actually in this time of Crisis this is exactly when we need
to invest and deliver on uh inclusion um so that way we don’t lose our diverse
Talent so we don’t end up in a situation long term where that broken wrong has
become a broken three or four rungs and it’s even harder to fix so we need to make sure that our team member
well-being and there are um satisfaction remains High which they have managed to
do so that I was going to say is is a fantastic attitude that um gpg along with some
other businesses did adopt um which is vastly different to what others did which had an impact on the um
diversity that we’ve seen in Tech hugely um there have been so many
especially if we’re looking at it from a woman and a woman of color point of view
um they already were not doing very well when it came to representation in Tech
we were doing better and there had been progress but when all the layoffs a lot
of part-time roles were predominantly held by women a lot of
um the roles around central services and roles that were dominated by
um women like marketing and comms they were more likely to see layoffs than
traditionally male dominated roles so what all of a sudden you’ve got is a lot
more women being furloughed a lot more women deciding to step back because the
not only them being on part-time wages now those hours probably being cut because you’re not being able to go into
the office um as well as the layoffs so many women
were forced into that back into the the recruitment sphere back into whether or
not they wanted to work um so we’ve what we’ve left with is now all
of these women as well as so many others back now looking for uh opportunities in
Tech and the market is even more competitive than it was before there are a lot less roles going and for women who
weren’t represented in Tech before don’t have the fallback of many many years
experience in senior positions than some who were found themselves back looking for jobs did
it’s almost like they were they couldn’t even compete anymore and on top of that the additional burdens
that were faced on women women disproportionately took on more of the unpaid work that many of us faced during
covert I think the world economic Forum found that to be about 7.7 hours more
than men a week so School shutting lack of child care options due to shielding
as well as all of those other factors meant that kovid had disproportionately affected women
so all of that built in with the mental and emotional burnout
um was all found to be higher in women than men which meant that women found it even harder to then get back in to the
workplace or as things started opening because they were having to recover from everything that they went through during
covid and then compete against people that they had qualifications in their mind that were
so vastly inferior to those who they were up against in the talent market and
again that’s not to say that they were it was just perception there’s no way I’m going to get that role because I
don’t have the 10 years experience that they have so all of those things but that’s not to
say that covert was wholly bad for diversity so all of those things definitely
negatively affected um diversity and Tech but there were elements that came and if businesses
leveraged those can be beneficial for diversity and Tech especially women things like the flexible working
what we found after covid is like despite being told all our lives that no
no you can’t work from home you’ll never do anything we realized that flexibility was not the end of this yeah exactly flexibility is
not the end of productivity we’ve realized that and we have proof uh of that now so businesses uh again like gbg
have really taken um this opportunity to choose to learn from
from this and increase opportunities for more remote working and hybrid flexibility uh within their roles
um which means that we are opening up our talent pools where it had previously been closed off so those women who had
to choose part-time work because they had Child Care issues and they were the main you know child care providers in
the household meant that they could look at different roles because it meant that they could manage that child care around
a full-time role um and be at home and have that flexibility so there are ways of
leveraging what we were left with post covered to benefit the diverse Talent we
have in the tech sphere yes you’re right it covered um in particular it had its
its um advantages obviously and disadvantages for for women um uh working in Tech I think as well um
you know we were saying about uh diversity now it’s it’s it was seen as a
nice to have I think now as well you said about you know competition in the industry and women coming back in a lot
of companies that might have been focusing on things like returners programs and and diversity programs that
you know it kind of has been um put aside for some companies not all as you said you know your own company
really embraced um diversity and other initiatives at the time and but it is a shame that some
of that work for many companies was unpicked because of all of the things that that happened recently
um it was an opinion piece by a Wall Street Journal um columnist Andy Kessler that
argued that the reason for Silicon Valley Banks uh fall may have been because they were distracted by
diversity demands um how can we stop diversity becoming a scapegoat for business failures
I mean it’s laughable really isn’t it yes I love I would love to know his thoughts
on all of the other bank crashes there have been and all of the stock market crashes and all of the businesses that
have been led by all male or white um boards and Executives that have
failed what were the diversity demands there like how did this happen yeah no I’m really distracted
programs oh but you know what in all honesty it was
a ridiculous statement and it contradicts all of the data that we
have on how well businesses that are run by diverse leadership and diverse boards do
you can you can find the data anywhere the statistics that show that having gender balanced boards see better
Financial outcomes than boards that don’t prioritize diversity um but in case of how do we stop this I
don’t I don’t think we do I don’t think the onus is honest in terms of stopping people scapegoating they always will we
will always have comments of which is like that oh well it’s because they’re so focused on diversity or though
they’re along the lines of the same type of comments that you get when people say oh I’m going to play
Devil’s Advocate um because you know your lived experiences are hilarious to me and I’m
just going to tire and exhaust you to the point where you no longer want to do this and that’s what they’re there to do
they are there to belittle exhaust and frustrate us to the point of apathy um so that the progress that we are
making um stops because they never benefited those groups and that’s what we need to
understand um we’ll never be able to change everyone’s mindset um I don’t need to change your beliefs I
need to change your behavior and eventually your beliefs will change because then you’ll see how this system of inclusion benefits you and I think
that’s what it is um it’s a case of mounting enough evidence so that the case for diversity
and the results that it provides is irrefutable and and that’s kind of
what I consider my job to be my job in terms of creating sound strategies for
inclusion and diversity or to do that it’s all it’s to build that help build that case on inclusion and diversity so
that it’s undeniable why we have this embedded across our organization
um and I think the comments by Kessler highlight a very important Pitfall that
women and women of color and many diverse groups as well face
um when when they step into previously homogeneous environments you know they may be completely qualified in fact
probably overqualified let’s be honest in some cases but because they are
different they’ll be perceived as a diversity higher and therefore any success will be
despite them whilst any failure will be because of them yeah and that’s a very very difficult
situation to put yourself in so when we were earlier when we were talking about you know barriers facing women of color
in tech for those who know what it’s like to work in Tech maybe we’ve been in tech for a few years and have
experienced all this it’s Tyson the fact that you talk about data as well and evidence
um is is so important because there was a I felt like there was a shift in the industry
um uh a few years ago where we didn’t have enough data and evidence to show how important diversity
um is to businesses and then all of a sudden McKenzie started releasing you know reports about how diversity is
increasing people’s um businesses bottom line and and people kind of there is
pricked up a little bit as through separatus it isn’t a nice to have it was actually increasing a business’s profit
and and and and suddenly people thought oh you know there’s some evidence to
show that and oh what you mean that it would actually make us money you know it was kind of before it was just like oh
you know it will increase your culture and it will be a nicer place for everybody to work and then suddenly
Business Leaders thought actually it does there’s more to it and there was this shift
um that kind of happened and as she said all of that happened because of data and evidence and how important that is
um to show um because as you said you you know you’ll always have the devil’s advocate in there
um for for your failures um and and obviously and your successes
um uh as as both um do you have any advice for our
listeners on how they can get into Tech bye
it really is a case of do not do not take yourself out of the running
before you’ve even given yourself a chance find all the tech roles that you can and apply companies are looking to
give talented women opportunities and we need to make ourselves as visible as possible as loud as possible this is
where you take up space kind of thing um but if you’re still I’m an ringer and
that’s if you’ve you know decided on a Tech Career and you’re like right I’m looking to get into a tech space now so
but if you’re still thinking about it then I would definitely say
mentorship is a fantastic Tool uh if you can find mentorship inside or outside of
your organization if you’re looking to maybe um switch careers or try to
comment something like that engage in it there’s so many benefits to it and it’s not just learning skills but also like
building up building your confidence um because confidence should be based on
you you know your superpower kind of thing you shouldn’t be confident for the sake of being confident you should be confident because you know deep down
that you can do this job and so mentorship can really help with that it should be built off evidence
um and mentions great with that and also networking opportunities like I mentioned earlier um I fell into this by chance by
opportunity because I heard of the job um and when I I’ve previously spoken to um
a a an old managing director for the organization and I asked him one night I
was just like how did you become a managing director for a global data intelligence company he was just like
I was in the right place at the right time with the right people and that was it so honestly make those connections
and and join organizations either again within or external to where you are
right now so that could be your um organization’s employee resource groups like The gpg we had the Champions
join those speech those again Network through them get the information that you need or you know join organizations
like yourself she can code um byp women in Tech Forum these are all fantastic organizations that you can
join communities of women like yourself you’re sharing insights you’re sharing support and you’re sharing your
perceptions listening to others you’re not only finding opportunities but you’ll avoid a few you know pitfalls as
well so definitely and keep going you have to be your biggest fan and your
best Advocate as well because no one is going to believe in you more than you so make sure that you do that
um and and just remember that like we’ve said all throughout this we are not on a
Level Playing Field so be patient because this is going to take some time but it’s you’re only responsibility is
to remain consistent yes definitely like you said you have to
be your biggest fan a something that we forget to do often tell you about it and
as you said a mentor can help remind you of those things as well because you know if you are dealing with things every day
um in your work life it is so easy to forget that really good things that that you are good at and even while you were
hired in that position just to sometimes remind yourself bye absolutely yeah a
hired for that role I we are almost out of time but I have one last question for you
um what does the future landscape look like for women in Tech hopefully bright yeah do you know what I
absolutely believe it is I mean we are we were already making progress we still
are it’s happening slowly but there is so much more emphasis and attention on
the future of diversity for Tech and a lot of businesses we look at the tech Talent Charters recent report
um a lot of businesses have gender as their main focus in terms of what they’re trying to drive and what I think
our responsibility is for the future of of tech in the the workspace is a focus
on early early careers making sure that we are showing the next generation of talent
um the representation that they deserve to have um so that they can see themselves uh in
Tech and see that Tech is a place that they belong as well yes I I think as well um I read a survey
recently um I can’t remember who it was by but it basically picks up on the um a
change in Generations as well as to what um young people look for now when when
they are applying and whereas previously I think everybody you know things that were more important to you with things
like salary and you know whether or not and how many holidays you had things like that apparently younger people now
they are they want diversity to be up there it’s up there in one of their top three things that they look for
um culture and environment and and they are they are looking for that so thankfully a lot of companies are
responding and they know that um that young people do care about the
environment that they’re going to work in and obviously companies hopefully will continue to make a shift and
because they’re not going to attract good talent if if they don’t if that’s a priority of young people nowadays so
absolutely companies will find that they’re being left behind on the the basis of talent
um so in order to remain again it goes back to that you know fluffy nice it’s ethical and it’s moral to be being but
the heart the the honest truth is that it makes good business sense to to put this as a priority and
thankfully I feel like a lot of businesses particularly in the tech space are doing that yes it makes good
business sense it’s a wonderful statement to leave it on because we were already out of time is flown by thank
you so much Armani for joining us today it’s been a pleasure having you on thank you so much
yeah and to everybody listening as always thank you for joining us and we hope to see you again next time
