We’ve all seen the headlines in recent weeks – ‘quiet quitting’ and ‘acting your wage’ have apparently ripped through workforces, with employees no longer saying ‘yes’ to the hustle culture!
But is this necessarily a bad thing? With burnout on the rise and a greater focus on mental well-being – should we be setting more boundaries in the workplace?
In this episode, we’re joined by Sandra Moran, Chief Marketing & Customer Experience Officer (CMCXO) at WorkForce Software. Sandra will talk us through why it’s important to set boundaries at work, how to stick to them, and why you don’t need to sacrifice your career in return.
Sandra is one of the Top 50 Women Leaders in SaaS, and CMO at WorkForce Software, has a strong background in tech, enabling software and technology companies to strengthen their brand and accelerate revenue growth for over 25 years.
hello everyone thank you for tuning in again I am Katie Bateman the content director at chican code and today we’re
discussing how to set boundaries at work and learning how to say no the terms
quiet quitting and acting your wage have apparently started to rip free workforces with employees no longer
saying yes to the hustle culture but is this necessarily a bad thing we burn out
on the rise and a greater focus on mental well-being should we be setting more boundaries in the workplace luckily
I have the wonderful Sandra Moran Chief marketing and customer experience officer at Workforce software with me
today to talk us through why it’s important to set boundaries at work how to stick to them and why you don’t need
to sacrifice your career in return welcome Sandra thank you so much I’m so happy to be here with you thank you for
joining us today can we set the scene with a little bit of background about yourself please absolutely so I am
working today as Chief marketing and customer experience officer at Workforce
software but with a long career in technology actually interestingly enough
beginning in programming and systems analyst roles myself and as marketing
has become so much more about the use of data and Technology to drive business
outcomes to improve the experience of our customers I couldn’t have known at
the time that I started my career that it would serve me so well but over my
career I’ve worked in virtually every aspect of a technology company from
coding transitioning into development management moving from behind the screen to in front of the screen to a pre-sales
role into marketing running a product management function and really settling
in this great place where all of those skill sets have come together for me and
again very very strong this is today on the use of data and analytics in driving
the kind of buyer and customer behaviors that that we want yeah it’s it’s interesting to hear that
you started in something slightly more Technical and then because there’s such a broad range of roles in in technology
and we love that on these podcasts to hear people’s backgrounds and where they come from and what they trained in and
how they how they ended up in uh in Tech is is it always something that you knew
you wanted to work in then did you train in that when you were a student or what happened there yeah I mean I my my
actual degrees is business analytics and business analysis and research
um and and that that is really where I felt like I wanted to be I uh um you
know I can remember being very very drawn to the technology the uh the
coding the um interaction uh with uh you know driving business outcomes through
technology and um I really evolved into the role that
I’m in today uh I I sometimes think it’s such a gift for people that just see
seem to know what they want to do in their career and what I would say is
there were a series of opportunities that were presented to me during my career you know I mentioned one I moved
from behind the screen to in front of the screen so presenting the software that I had been working on and I took a
lot of risks that that came to me the technology industry as everybody knows
is a highly acquisitive there were Acquisitions there were mergers of
organizations that presented opportunities for me to continue to expand my skill set so I was very open
and receptive to doing that and um you know again for me marketing is
really the culmination of all the things that I love so much it scratches all of
my itches meaning you know it has that creative the beauty of the the graphics
the um you know the messaging I that’s my more or uh you know artistic side and
then really today it is all about systems integration using data
um really dedicating yourself to a level of analytics an observation in order to
drive continuous Improvement so although I got there through a series of yeses in
my career this is such a great place for me and um recently expanded from Beyond
just the marketing role to an experience role inside Workforce software where we
are trying to take that same great experience that we’re trying to offer somebody from that first touch all the
way through to the relationship that they have with our company and that’s applying that same discipline of
analytics um to really support our customers increasing value from using our solution
so I’m really taking some of the techniques there and moving and across to other functions in inside the
organization yeah and where you are today for a series of
yeses in your careers and today we’re talking about how how difficult it can be to say no and why do you think it’s
so hard to say no at work yeah I I mean I think it’s part of human nature and
um we are very fundamentally uh people that are individuals that want to please
others um I had a personal situation helping my mother-in-law who was suffering from
dementia so I was doing a lot of research even about that and even some of the behaviors of dementia patients
are grounded in this feeling that they they want to please they know what the
social Norm is so you know something as simple as wanting to respond to your question even though they don’t really
know the answer anymore I think it’s fundamentally ingrained in us as people that that it’s more difficult to
advocate for ourselves um than than just really just say no that that is that’s not for me right
right now so I think one is just this natural inclination to please
um I I don’t want to be stereotypical but we know that women are more likely to do that than men if we look at the
psychological research behind that um but what I have come to understand
about saying yes is that when I say yes I’m inviting something into my life that
is going to take time away from something else that might be a greater priority for me and honestly for my
company as well yeah I think as well um you’re absolutely right there and
when you’re younger as well I mean a lot of our listeners are first and second jobbers and I find that when you’re
younger you obviously don’t want to say no to anything you think that you’re supposed to say yes to everything and
that every opportunity is a good opportunity for you which isn’t always the case I remember years ago I I um was
always invited to do public speaking and I always felt that I was far too young and I had nothing to share that people
would want to listen to and I remember always having to say no no no you know
and just but it almost became a thing like I had to find it within myself to push back and say you know I don’t want
to find myself in in an environment where I feel like I have nothing to share with anybody
um and it’s it’s almost like I think my company at the time that I worked for thought they were doing me a favor and
it was going to be a good opportunity but you do have to push back on the thing games that are not meant for you
as you said at that point in time um and that all depends on where you are in your career and and your confidence
as well so you know something like public speaking I was nowhere near ready for public speaking of that age
um but you’re right I think we it’s ingrained in us to be uh people places isn’t it and we just say yes and then
realize uh maybe we can’t follow through on that um and why is that so important then to
set those boundaries at work well I I think that
um you understanding what your boundary is is really the first part of that and
you raised a really interesting point with earlier in your career having the confidence to understand what that is
but if I don’t understand my own boundary I can’t really expect anyone
else to know what that is and that is a level of maturity and introspection that
you need to take time to do for yourself again not expect that somebody else is
going to do that work for you so is each opportunity presents itself to you this
will you do this I think you have to look at you know sometimes it is good to
give the gift to your company um it’s an A honor sometimes to be asked
to do something special or something additive but evaluate whether or not
taking on that project meets one of the objectives that you have either for yourself or for your career advancement
or maybe it’s not the time for you in your life to be pursuing career
advancement that doesn’t mean you’re not a great employee doesn’t mean that you’re not doing your job but that
evaluation of will this new responsibility or this new opportunity
help me with something that is important to me development of a new skill experiencing something outside my
comfort zone helping a fellow peer demonstrating that I am willing to help
out when it’s a a time of need those
opportunities to really assess what is the value of this and to feel confident
that if it doesn’t meet any of those objectives and you’re becoming the person that picks up the slack for
everybody else those are really the times when you can say this is not for me because in saying yes if that’s going
to create a resentment for you between you and your employer a resentment between you and a peer it’s better to
not allow that to happen than to get to that place where we see so many people
today really disgruntled about what they think is an imbalance in their
relationship with work it could be because they’ve said yes to things that they should have said no to in the first
place yeah and and I think the pandemic has changed a lot of that hasn’t it
people’s boundaries were were really just completely reset I think for for a
lot of us working from home and working remotely and you know even
um uh just times that we work and whether or not we’re available at certain hours
um and all of that really was reset by by the pandemic and I was going to ask you about you know some examples of
these boundaries and and I think probably if I’d asked you this a couple of years ago they would have been completely different examples
absolutely I mean we if you just you know sometimes I just sit back and think
about the magnitude of the change in almost every aspect of our personal
lives as well as our professional lives I don’t think anyone could have imagined
that we would be even having the conversations that that we’re having today so I think the pandemic
um really was a time of Awakening we were isolated we had time to really
think about what was most important to us and some people came out of that with
this new idea about what is my boundary what am I willing to do or not
um to do and um I also see a huge gift from the pandemic and that was you know
I think pre-pandemic in many ways we weren’t even allowed to be people um I never saw on anyone’s house
um I didn’t see their dog I didn’t see them hug their children there is also a beauty in the the humanity that has come
out of that but as we’re talking about again that is really my responsibility
then to think about how does that affect the boundaries that I have and the
willingness for me to own what those feelings are and to communicate that so
just because I saw in your house doesn’t mean that I know what is important to
you um you need to be willing to share and communicate openly what’s important to
you versus expecting that somebody else knows and then being resentful when they they don’t respect a boundary they
didn’t know existed yes I it’s so interesting you saying that because you’re absolutely right those boundaries
of also allowing people into your home for lots of us who hadn’t worked from
home before having to log on and and share with our colleagues you know where
where we lived and and whether or not people lived alone and and trying to find Space to work at the time and we
also do y um live webinars uh at chican code and every time I do it I find it
very strange that I invite you know a couple of hundred people into my home instead of normally I would have done
that in an office environment um but yeah those those boundaries have really really been pushed
um in terms of employers do you think um that employers might view our
boundaries of you know us not being ambitious or a team player if we speak up about certain things
um I think that managers and companies are people too so you know we shouldn’t
assume you know a blanket generalization about somebody feeling one way or another
um there certainly are but I would call you know old school thinkers that um may
not be as receptive to those ideas but um I will say that I I do believe that
um employers are becoming more aware of uh the scarcity of resource they’re
becoming more aware of um the need to retain employees and the
value of retaining employees we’re giving managers and companies a lot better information about that today so
um being willing to communicate with your employer about what is right for
you and then um you know may not get everything you want but you’re 100 guaranteed you won’t
get anything you want if you don’t ask for it and the recognition that there is
value to retaining the employee can we negotiate something that is a better
relationship for both of us so um if I knew you were going to leave you know often in an exit interview we find out
that somebody’s leaving for something that we could have or would have been willing to do so I would say again
confidence have the presence to communicate what it is that’s important
to you go in with the belief that you’re a valuable employee and that your employer will want to find a way to do
it if they can and advocate for yourself um Workforce software does a lot of work
with very very large employers primarily deskless employees the kind of software
that we do handle scheduling and attendance and Communications and
um I’ll say that you know in a large employer situation don’t expect that
your manager really really understands what your life circumstances are
um today again we’re talking about technology we can use technology to alert managers to things that they’re
not going to have the ability to see and allow them to adapt more proactively to
what might be the circumstance for an employee so I’ll give you an example um you know five overtime shifts extra
overtime shifts over this a two-week period might be the best thing ever for
an employee who has scheduling flexibilities trying to save five overtime ship tips for a single mother
who’s working probably not a great thing so alerting somebody
having that interaction sometimes enabled by technology and then being
able to make an accommodation that matches the individual’s need not just
this blanket hey everybody here has to that that can help managers create some
of these better compromises if you will based on what an
employee really values but it starts with being willing to say this isn’t good for me what employer can you do to
help me with that yes because I I wanted to ask you about that so-called hustle
culture and whether or not the tide is turning but as you just mentioned there even you know the technology that’s
available nowadays is to to bring you know something to a manager’s awareness
as to as she said whether or not it it works for somebody you know somebody wants those overtime shifts them and
they’re available to do it then then why not um but I think the tide is is definitely
starting to to turn um would you would you agree I do I do also still believe that there
are people for whom um ambition and drive are are always
going to be part of their you know mentality and their aspiration and you
know neither one of those is a you know a silver bullet or the definitive standard for everybody
and I do feel like again sort of pandemic Opening Our Eyes to
um the reality that the the balance is shifted more toward the employee and it
is not a blanket employee population people have an expectation because of
really the life though our personal life um that things should be personalized to
their need and um you know I think we do have an opportunity to address things at that
level um when we’re balancing what the employee needs with what I mean the
company has to stay in business it still has to be yeah but um we can find a way to have an
employee for whom their boundary and standard is this and an employee who
does want to do more one is not good and one is not bad it’s about finding the
relationship and balance that’s right for that individual
um if you look at things like scarcity of of resources we may have to do things
that we have not done in the past um you know you might want uh I mean
again I’ll give you an example from manufacturing um you know it’s great when the line
runs from 7 30 in the morning to 4 30 and I’ve got a full group that’s willing
to do that there’s a lot of people for whom that level of work is not desirable
can an organization break those shifts up so that they can create more of a uh
you know a gig economy style culture so maybe I I can attract an employee who
does want to work three days a week or on a different shift schedule that
doesn’t make them a less desirable employee it means finding a balance between what that employee wants to do
and the need of the business in order to um you know to to create this
personalized experience where both win I need workers you want to work a
different you’re not a bad employee because what works for you is less time at work yes and when you say they’re
both win instead of one being burnt out until employer being the only one that’s
winning um can we be successful in our careers while maintaining our boundaries do you
think absolutely and um you know I when I even just look back
on my own career um there were times that I was building and growing and that meant that I was
willing to say yes to more new opportunities there’s times in my career
where um I was you know balancing obligations inside my family and I wasn’t looking
for more at those times so again I I think that is about you being
comfortable about what it is that feels right to you you being confident enough to communicate what is that boundary
finding that middle ground it isn’t always about you doing more and taking
on more in order to to move through your career it’s about being clear about
where you are what it is that you want to do saying yes to opportunities that
help you develop those new skills and flex those new you muscles and do it in
a way that is authentic to what feels right for you not letting yourself get
into that place where you become resentful because you said yes don’t
assume that the other person knows the price of the yes to you yes and do you
think that leadership teams should be promoting boundary setting as part of their culture because I always believe
it should trickle down shouldn’t it you know if you don’t see that you can set boundaries from the Top If people are
not blocking out their calendars because they’re they’re doing something they need to do the school run or whatever it
may be then it’s not it’s not going to trickle down is it and be part of the the rest of the culture you’ll feel
quite awkward having to say I’ve set this boundary of my team leader isn’t
doing the same thing absolutely and and that is such an important part of the
culture and commitment of the leadership team I certainly have worked for individuals who made me feel like and I
think this was pre-pandemic we were always on you know we were talking about always being on my phone was there I was
never I have worked for people who clearly set that as an expectation and
it was my responsibility then to say you know what I’m not available at this time I I’m gonna you know I have something
that I’m doing um I recently got um an email from a customer that I absolutely loved and in
the signature line I don’t remember the exact wording but it said something like please don’t interpret my um emailing
you at this time as a requirement for you to reply it just so happens to work for me that I’m working at this time and
I just love that subtle reminder that you know that’s a great example of you know maybe I worked and then I did
something for my family and I’m back online but that is not an indication to you that my expectation is you’re always
there you reply tomorrow but it does require the discipline and the
communication that you’re saying that to employees and you’re modeling the
behavior that you’re expecting I I don’t expect someone to reply if I just so
happen to pick up my phone and think of something and I want to communicate it at that time I think it’s a fabulous
reminder and really should be part of what leaders are saying to their
employees about their own work Style and what they expect from their employees in
terms of uh you know don’t reply just because I’ve sent this to you yes oh
that’s a great example because I think we’ve all we’ve all seen emails uh late late in the evening and and you’re
absolutely right now somebody um says it you do automatically think
should should I respond should I should I quickly go back on my and I’m meant to be working incredibly late because you
are um and especially if you companies Global as well you know you’re kind of getting that mindset of your on all the
time and you know it just gets to a point where you just it’s just not good good for her for for you and your
employer um as we’ve mentioned and you know based on that that’s that’s great advice in itself but do you have any
advice for our listeners struggling to set those boundaries at work yes and it and it really starts with you
sitting down and defining what that is for yourself until you’ve done the work to to
determine what feels right to you you can’t expect that anybody else is going
to adapt to that so I you know I would even suggest that if you’re really
really struggling with replying that you you think about writing down what would I say why would I but please don’t come
to the relationship assuming that saying no is the wrong thing that it’s going to be misinterpreted give the individual
that you’re going to say no to the benefit of um you don’t really have to explain
yourself these are this is not something that fits into my work schedule
um deliver it with confidence the more unsure you are about why you’re saying
no the more that’s going to be telegraphed to the individual that’s asking you to do something so I I would
say understand clearly for yourself what is your boundary is it ours is it
cumulative time is it um an expectation that you’re going to
take on something out of your comfort zone what is it that makes you feel like
this isn’t the right thing for you get in touch with what that is and then be clear about what you do want to say yes
to and what you you need to say no to so that you’re in the right place for you
in this moment in your career yes and I suppose it’s you’re right it’s
pick and choosing as well isn’t it what what you say no to what you say yes to and also how you communicate that
because you know if you just quickly fire an email back to somebody because it’s five past five and you say I’m
sorry my working hours are only nine till five that’s probably not a battle that you needed to pick
um again I think it’s it’s it don’t feel
compelled that you have to describe or Justify why that isn’t the right answer
for you and that is in being more communicative up front rather than
reacting to everything as as it’s coming in and you know I I do have people on my
team that have been very clear with me about um you know at this moment this is what
is right for me I’m grateful that I know that and then I find other ways to get
things done I don’t keep going back to that same person with an expectation and
I also I’m not resentful that this is not the time that they’re interested in
um additional responsibilities additional growth opportunities that’s fine there is likely somebody else who
may welcome that opportunity and again it’s like a point in your career a young
mother even a young father I’m so grateful that um the burden I’m not the
burden the burden of household chores but the the joy of child rearing is is
not just the woman’s responsibility um this might not be your time for that and and me knowing that means that I
don’t I also as a manager am not wondering why you’re not doing this it’s
a communication is is a two-way street yeah and so what do you do then if
boundaries are broken how do you politely say no
same thing open communication yeah I you
know how we respond to being thoughtful about that your example was a great one
it’s 505. it’s probably not because it’s 505 it’s probably because there were a
series of things that happened that were testing your boundaries find the right moment communicate with the individual
in a professional way that doesn’t mean you back off of your boundary but it
means that you’re thoughtful about what got you to the point where you wanted to fire that email 505 why are you sending
this to me right now um and and we all in every relationship sometimes we give more than we get
sometimes we get more than we give um I feel like if you’re in a keeping
score mode you’re probably pretty unhappy about doing that
um your your relationship at work is like real relationships in life so if
you feel yourself getting into scorekeeping mode I did this I did that I did you know understand what feels
good to you and then give it with joy and when it feels like it’s a burden
that’s time for you to get in touch with why does this feel like a burden to me have I worked more than I wanted to did
I accept tasks that are really not in my best interest or the company’s best
interest long term because if you’re doing something significantly below your
pay grade or ability that’s preventing you from doing something that has higher value to the company as well so I I
wouldn’t always look at it as what am I unwilling to this is not in my job description that’s one of my least
favorite things but it if you look at the truth then it’s not in my job
description and you own the um the opportunity to do what you should
be doing and what this is preventing you from doing you will be able to navigate to a better
place for yourself and a better place for your employer and sometimes we do
things that are not in our job description and our employers are grateful but that cannot become the norm
such that the business doesn’t meet as objectives and you feel a burden from
having said yes yeah and I think that depends as well on
the type of company you work for and um I love working for a startup and it’s a
culture that I enjoy but if I turn around every time I want you to say that’s not part of my job description we
would never move forward because you know there’s not there’s not enough of us to just say it’s somebody else’s job
you have to pick up those things when you’re starting as long as you feel that a company is moving towards a larger
team where people eventually pick those things up you know we have to get to that point um and they it’s a it’s a two-way street
obviously um but it does depend on the company because we would never move forward
um but um in terms of setting um boundaries I had a great conversation
with a lady a few weeks ago who said to me she works um part-time and she said what you were saying about
the interest of the company and the team um she said I have to set quite strong boundaries because
um working part-time means if I pop up on the wrong days I’m not actually helping my team at all because then
they’re not sure when can they contact me when can’t they contact me and she said it actually becomes a real headache
for my team if I pop up on days when I’m not meant to be there so she said actually in terms of boundaries it’s
it’s not they’re not just for her they’re for her team as well and that enables her to be flexible and able to
her to be a young mum and do what she needs to do at this point in in her life and I suppose those boundaries are
they’re important for everybody to to know what they are absolutely I think that’s a a great example and if you
think about how that translates to our new hybrid working environment that
Clarity of when can I reach you when can’t I reach you is really important
because there are times as we all know that we do need to be together we do need to collaborate we do need to make a
decision um even setting um some uh working guidelines about how
to work when this individual is not available those are things that you
should be discussing before the need arises especially where people could be working
different schedules that are working you know toward a similar project working toward what is the protocol that we’re
going to use when we would ever reach out to this person off hours
um also if you’re working a hybrid schedule your business has to continue
so don’t be offended if the business moved forward and you were not part of
that that kind of dialogue about what happens when that should be happening
when we’re setting work schedule schedules when we understand what people’s boundaries are and own the fact
that if if that is your work life that you are giving up something for the
flexibility that you’ve asked for and be comfortable that that’s appropriate and
that that is the compromise you’re willing to make I’ll call it loss of control if you will in order to have the
flexibility that’s important to you but those are things people should go into with their eyes wide open communicate
openly about talk through um the contingency plans if you will so
that you’re prepared and that people aren’t surprised and you’re not going to get everything right after something
happens that was unplanned be confident to communicate what what went wrong what
didn’t go wrong um that sort of like festering waiting for somebody to realize what what impact
that had on me that’s a unhealthy place to be and again it’s about confidence
and and communication that you would take ownership in your role in
um getting to a place that you want to be yes I love that just understanding when
you are missing meetings still happen and things still move forward um yeah that’s a that’s a great example
and we’re almost out of time but I have one question I wanted to ask you um because boundaries they’re always
easier when starting somewhere new um but do you have any tips on drawing the lines when you’ve been in a role for
some time do people think they can just ask you anything at that point
it is good to start out but it’s never too late to change what is happening in
your in your life so don’t assume that because you’ve been doing something for a long time that you don’t owe it to
yourself and deserve uh to ask for things that are right for you and to
communicate and advocate for yourself um if you assume your employer has the
desire to keep you and you don’t have the courage to communicate what’s
important to you you’re really um limiting their ability to do the right
thing for you so you know we we use a saying in my team all the time about
assume positive intent if you approach it assuming this was a
mistake this was a miscommunication this happened they didn’t mean it let’s go find a way to uh resolve it
um that’s a healthier approach that doesn’t mean again every time you’re you’re gonna get what you want but just
because you’ve said yes in the past or just because you you’ve gotten yourself
into a situation there is no time like today to articulate what the truth is
for you and to advocate for yourself and give your employer or your peer the
opportunity to hear what you’re saying and respond don’t assume that what you’re asking for is going to be outside
the realm they certainly would hate to lose you over something that they could
have addressed with you that you didn’t give them the opportunity to change if
they say no thank you but it’s you’re you’re depriving me of
the opportunity to do the right thing so you know asking for something what’s the
worst thing that can happen they’ll say no and then you know you’re not in the right place versus giving somebody the
gift to um to save you to find an accommodation
we don’t want to learn that in the exit interview yeah lovely that is lovely positive
advice to end on there and because we’re already out of time thank you Sandra so much for joining us for a chat today
it’s been it’s been an absolute pleasure thank you so much thank you and for everybody listening as
always thank you for joining us and we hope to see you again next time
