Coding bootcamps can be an excellent choice for many students, but they are highly intensive programs that may not be right for everyone.
When considering a bootcamp, it’s important to assess whether it aligns with your goals, learning style, and resources.
In this episode, we are joined by one of SheCanCode’s elite blog squaders – Holly Boothroyd, Software Engineer at Microsoft – to share her own story and reveal some of the key factors to consider when determining if a bootcamp is right for you.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
hello everyone thank you for tuning in
again as always I am Katie batesman the
content director at chican code and in
today’s episode we’re discussing how to
know if a boot camp is right for you
coding boot camps can be an excellent
choice for many students but they are
highly intensive programs that may not
be right for everyone I’m joined by the
incredible Hollywood Freud software
engineer at Microsoft today who we’re
also lucky enough to have as an Elite
member of she chem codes blog Squad and
today she will be sharing her own story
and revealing some of the key factors to
consider when determining if a boot camp
is right for you so welcome Holly thank
you so much for joining us yes thank you
so much for having me I’m really excited
to be here it is a pleasure to have you
as I mentioned you are a member of our
blog Squad and you are very popular in
our community so this is going to be a
popular podcast
um with our ladies and I’m so pleased
that you got to join us today
um and we have a lot to talk about so uh
we’re going to kick off if it’s okay can
you start with a bit of background about
yourself to set the scene please
yeah so I mean we can go I’ll start high
level and then dive in a little deeper
so I am a Microsoft software engineer
too working out of London so I work on
things like file explorer Edge and just
generally bringing intelligence to
Windows and Edge and so it’s quite a big
remix it means like it’s a lot work on
lots of cool different projects and ship
to like a billion people so it’s quite
quite a lot of pressure
outside of my day job though I am also
the founder of her Hello World a
platform where I try to help get you
know women and generally just
underrepresented people into technology
careers and you know thrive in their
careers once they get there so you know
things like Instagram Tick Tock my own
website all sorts of different stuff and
one of those ways is working with she
can code which I absolutely love doing
and writing blogs for
um but in terms of how I actually got
into this field I started with AAC plus
games programming camp in uh High School
um it was with a local University it was
pretty intense I don’t necessarily
recommend C plus plus as a starting
language but I really loved games and so
this is why I took this camp but
ultimately it set me on the right path I
Then followed up with some classes in
high school doing Java and web
development before finally deciding to
commit to studying computer science with
business at University so that’s when I
finally made the move over from Seattle
cattle to England and that’s basically
where I’ve been since
um otherwise I did as part of my degree
a placement year at Microsoft and that’s
how I got my start at Microsoft I did a
year-long internship working on paid 3D
three-month internship working on Xbox
back in Seattle and then was offered my
grad role
um here on the team that I’m working on
now and so I’ve been working on Search
Assistant intelligence ever since
amazing and you took quite a traditional
route in you you knew what you wanted to
do
was that something you just knew from a
young age you seem to have a path that
was very clear you I mean even though
you would recommend it you went off and
did C plus plus
um but you kind of knew did somebody
encourage you in that area
yeah I think my age early was definitely
a lot more A to B than what I see a lot
of people doing especially now in this
industry and I think I definitely
benefited from the fact that so a lot of
people don’t actually realize this is
that Seattle is quite a big techer but
you know Microsoft is based there Amazon
is based there we also have a million
other big companies that lots of people
have heard about but don’t really
realize they’re either from Seattle and
so I was kind of always surrounded by
technology
but that isn’t to say that I was you
know I was still one of only like one or
two girls in the classroom so there’s
still that element of you know a bit of
imposter syndrome wondering is this
really the right path for me I mean a
little bit after that game’s programming
came on for it was C plus plus and was
quite intense and I was in a room with
basically all boys not many people spend
six weeks you know learning to do games
programming over the summer
um I just questioned myself a little bit
at that point being like is this really
what I want to do
um but thankfully I gave it another shot
in high school doing the Java classes
instead which was a much nicer learn to
learn as a first-time programmer and how
to yeah incredible teacher who was just
like the most supportive person in the
world
um and you know kind of really
encouraged me that you know this is
something that you can do and you know
kind of go out and do it so I’m really
glad that I did and ultimately it became
a lot easier and a lot more fun as you
keep learning so yes and I think as well
that’s as she said as you kept going you
found what worked for you in terms of I
want to learn and this works for you and
and that’s part of our conversation
today because I think when people think
oh I’ll go into technology and I’ll you
know start I will pick a boot camp and
I’ll go down the area of you know
finding a boot camp they can be very
expensive they can be quite intensive
are they actually worth it for some
people
um
when you get started though what do you
think some of the key factors to
consider in determining if a boot camp
is right for you or not right for you
yeah this is a really great question
because exactly as you point out
bootcamps are pretty expensive and so
it’s a real consideration that you have
to make and make sure that it’s going to
be right for you and it is the right
boot camp as well I think there’s a lot
of boot camps out there and the quality
of them definitely varies and so when I
think about choosing the right boot camp
I guess it’s a it’s a mix of two things
it needs to be a good quality boot camp
but it needs to be a good quality boot
camp for you
um and so I when I look at boot Camp’s
overall in terms of their quality I
think about you know you know do you
want like this kind of extra like you
know more support more guided learning
having a teacher there having a lesson
plan you know a lot of people don’t
really know where to start or where to
go to find that kind of learning pathway
so boot camps are really good at giving
you kind of that extra support and
motivation and accountability to get you
through that initial process especially
because the learning curve is even so
having somebody to kind of help you
through those first initial stages while
you’re learning to learn and learning
where to go to learn this information
that can definitely be really helpful
um I think something to be mindful of
when you’re choosing a boot camp is
really like understanding what it is
that they teach because these boot camps
are only a few months long sometimes
they’re even a couple weeks you don’t
get a whole lot of breadth in your
education and so you need to understand
what their focus areas and is that does
that actually align with what you want
to learn in the industry because every
part of the industry tends to have you
know a language or a tech stack that
works best for it and so if you want to
optimize your learning and optimize your
entry into the industry you should try
to find a boot camp that is teaching you
the tech stack that aligns with where
you want to go and so that does require
a bit of introspection and a bit of
research to understand what part of the
business that you actually you know want
to enter and whether or not that
actually aligns with it and the last
thing I always tell people to look out
for with boot camps is try to find one
with industry connections it’s the
biggest thing that I find makes it
successful for people who have done the
learning have some of the skills now but
actually getting that first job the
people I’ve seen that have been really
successful going through boot camps is
where the boot camp actually has a
partnership with somebody in Industry
with a company that you know gives you
at least this interview at the end or
mentorship with somebody at that company
so you have that bit of a tie and those
kind of Career Connections to make that
transition from boot camp to the
workplace much much easier yes that’s
great advice because as you said boot
camps can be very expensive and if you
get to the end and you feel like I still
don’t know if this is even for me and
there’s still no other options that the
other ends that could be a complete
waste of of time and money and
especially
we speak to a lot of returners
um and that’s that’s quite a gamble as
well you know if you’re uh you’ve been a
full-time mum or you’ve been caring for
somebody and then you’re kind of
weighing up should I take a boot camp
and try and get back into Tech and
that’s quite a gamble for for you know
people that have have other
responsibilities
um as to whether or not it’s right for
them and you still don’t get a job or
have that connection at the end
um so yeah that’s that’s
um great advice for those who are
thinking
um if they decide a boot camp isn’t for
them and what are some other good
alternatives to to learning and training
do you think
I think my favorite one at the moment
are apprenticeships games I think
they’re really cool and they’re
definitely increasing in popularity and
so they’re also increasing and kind of
availability of what is actually out
there in the industry and but a lot of
the good ones that I see so there’s
different levels
um I’m not an expert on all of the
different levels but a lot of the ones
that I see are these like degree
apprenticeships so you go to work part
of time of the week and you also then
study a part of the week so by the end
of your I think it’s like four or five
years you’ve been getting paid for all
of your work so that’s four or five
years worth of work experience you have
a degree which you’ve not had to pay for
so now don’t have all of this debt you
have all of this like great work
experience and network and you’re
probably gonna get a job offer at the
end of it I’d be incredibly surprised if
you did not get a full-time job offer at
the end and it’s a great way to start
getting into these big companies that
maybe are traditionally seen as quite
hard to get into like Microsoft off
Google you know these all have
apprenticeship schemes and so for people
who are kind of thinking about where to
go that’s definitely an option I’m
emphasizing to people more as you know a
good a good way to get in especially
with like lower Financial barriers too
and yeah you can you can talk a little
bit more about the specifics of that but
generally the fact that at least you’re
getting paid and don’t have to go into
debt to get your degrees
and you’re in the world of work I mean
that your streets ahead of students if
we’ve all had that feeling when you
leave University and you think oh my
word I was not prepared to for a
workplace let alone having the
qualifications
yeah exactly so I think they’re a really
good option there’s definitely I think
like not going to UNI as a group that
talks a lot about apprenticeship schemes
I think the government’s even sponsoring
a lot of different
um apprenticeship schemes so they’re on
the rise absolutely so I look into those
um but the other options really are
University like I did so it’s a very
traditional path the industry
understands that there’s lots of support
if you go down that path definitely do a
placement year or at least like get some
work experience as well it helps
immensely when you try to get to the end
of your degree right and then you don’t
hopefully have to interview like I
didn’t have to interview because I
already had the job and
then I guess the other option is
self-teaching which requires a lot of
discipline I think that’s really the big
thing it’s a lot of discipline but it’s
entirely achievable there’s loads of
free resources out there that’ll teach
you all the basics that you’ll probably
learn how to boot camp anyway you just
have to you know really guide yourself
through that process quite a lot more
yes yeah because that’s quite difficult
and even online learning is hard enough
let alone you know I I always prefer to
be in a classroom with somebody there
especially if you’re not quite sure if
it’s for you and that person can kind of
encourage you through
um but yeah if you’re doing just
self-learning it can be incredibly tough
um if you’re really inspired by those
who do it I have to say I’m like you
must be much smarter than I am much more
dedicated yeah I’m finding the drive to
to sit down and and to learn and to do
it um and it’s easy it’s a great Habit
to get in as well because you know a lot
of
um people in Tech not just women they
say once you’re in you know you’re
actually you’re constantly learning so
if that’s something you’re doing from
you know yourself from the start then
that’s a really good habit to get into
absolutely um when people
especially on our live webinars I must
say some of the questions we get asked
they are asked about languages and where
to start do you have any tips on uh you
know where beginners can get started to
test the water you mentioned a little
bit about doing a research and knowing
where you want to work in the business
but you know if you’re if you’re really
new
where would you get started not C plus
plus to take it
longer that he’ll find
he’ll find I think
the easiest answer to give is there’s
probably three languages that you’ll end
up starting with it’s probably going to
be you know C sharp JavaScript or python
those are the ones that I see a lot of
people doing so if you want quick short
answer probably one of those is a safe
bet again though I do encourage people
to do a bit more research because you
know you could learn one and you’ll end
up having to learn another language at
some point anyway but
it’ll save you a lot of time trying to
get into the job that you want by
learning the skill that is relevant for
the part of the industry that you want
to go into yeah um so again do your
research just go check out the job
descriptions on for the companies that
you want to work for or research the
people on LinkedIn see what skills they
have that’ll start to really quickly
like build out an idea of what languages
text acts even professional skills that
they’re utilizing as well but in terms
of you know great I have an idea of what
language I want to learn what tech stack
what do I do now I’m a couple good
online platforms that I’ve used before
is like free cocap YouTube has a lot of
free stuff on there edx Microsoft learn
has a whole bunch of like learning
Pathways that are really tied towards
specific jobs and there’s free training
there and that kind of starts to build
out a bit of a road map and and the
other one that I’ve started to like come
across more now is this it’s actually a
GitHub page but they have a website but
backing it is called like roadmaps.sh
really cool interactive website that
basically like breaks things down into
like you know do you want to learn front
end back end this language blah blah has
this map effectively of like all the
things that you can learn uh related to
that subject and then you can like click
on them and there’s resources so it’s
done a lot of the work and the thinking
for you so if you’re not really too sure
what to do now that you have a language
in mind I would check out that website
so you can kind of get a bit more of a
fine-grained detail look on what you
should actually be learning next amazing
yeah that’s great advice I think if you
get started you you might feel that you
know it you go for a couple of courses
and then you realize actually I’ve
learned a few things that just not
useful to me they’re not they’re not
going to be useful to me this was a
complete waste of my time and you won
continue through that process of you
know continue learning and moving
forward to getting that job
um so I think it’s it is important to
start with something that you know as
you said you can you can move forward
and actually use within the types of
businesses that you you would like to
work at and that also leads into
um you know picking the route the right
boot camp or training course
um that translates into real world work
and projects and I how how
about that because as we said there you
know it’s quite important about what
training courses you pick and it’s I
suppose you mentioned a little bit about
you know ensuring having a boot camp
that is related uh has good connections
into the world of work that can really
help but I suppose if you if you’re
sitting there in your training course
thinking I’m not learning learning
anything that I actually think this is
what I would be doing in a business this
is what I would be doing when I get into
work that again would just seem like a
complete waste of time wouldn’t it you
you wouldn’t feel like you wanted to
stay in that area
yeah it’s a definitely an interesting
one because
to your point I mean you need to be
learning these practical skills and this
is why you know working on projects
getting work experience I do find that’s
where you end up learning the most so I
learned a lot of my degree but I
definitely think I learned the most
during my internship and my placement
years and actually doing the job yeah so
it’s a bit of an interesting one again
it goes back to kind of doing your
research what do you actually want to do
um trying to build projects so I think
projects are a really good way of
demonstrating and that you can put all
the pieces together that you’ve been
learning into something functional and
useful and if you could make a tie to
the place that you want to go into an
industry that’s a really nice way of
standing out with that employer so it’s
a bit of a balance again I would make
sure that the boot camp that you’re
choosing actually teaches you the things
that you need to be learning but
generally these boot camps teach
quite a lot of foundational information
and maybe they get into some depth and a
little like the later weeks and months
but you can’t really go too wrong I
think it’s kind of up to you to make
sure that they do a lot of projects and
make sure that you know you’re kind of
supplementing that with maybe additional
projects related to where you end up
actually wanting to go in industry and
there’s a lot of different you know ways
in which you can connect with industry
to find out more about what they’re
doing or to build projects outside of
that like hackathons yeah
um do you have Community groups as well
that you work whenever they’re any sort
of whether they’re female groups or you
know industry-wide that you tap into on
different projects and you know not not
just now you’re working you know that’s
kind of is that how you got started
yeah so I’ve been involved with a couple
different Community groups based in the
UK that I love
um so I’ll give them a little bit of a
shout out so like the stem ads they have
a really good mentorship program and
they work a lot with different
Industries and do good like kind of
Discovery days almost with them
um I definitely take a look at them
they’re kind of a bit more targeted
towards like I guess like under 25s I
think is kind of their focus but there’s
lots going on there so I definitely take
a look at them code first girls is
another one that I really like they do a
lot of coding classes of all different
kind of lengths and
um in a subject matter as well they also
have lots of Industry connections as
well they’re all of their coding classes
are completely free so that’s great and
I don’t think they have as many
um age restrictions I would need to
double check but I think they’re kind of
a bit more open maybe it’s maybe it’s
more students and recent grads and
potentially career switchers as well so
I need to double check but
um they have a lot of good things we are
the city is also just a big Network
um in London or across the UK should I
say they do lots of different events as
well they have also award ceremonies
that you should nominate yourself for so
you can get some more industry
recognition and opportunities and all
sorts of good stuff like that
um but in terms of a community I
definitely want to highlight in terms of
if you want to do more hackathons or
technical things Major League hacking is
a Global hackathon Group they run all
sorts of different events and partner
with all sorts of different hackathon
groups so you’ll see a lot of them
partner with student societies and
universities but they do other things as
well so I’d encourage you you know if
you want to do a bit more programming
meets more people build up those skills
to actually like make your skills
applicable you know even Explore your
business skills and Entrepreneurship
skills kind of you know formulating the
actual idea that goes in behind your
hack project then that’s a good place to
kind of look up and see if they have
events near you yes yes I love that I I
love all of the groups that you just
mentioned and also using about hacker
phones
um that is is it’s just a brilliant way
to network with other people that are
building similar projects or work on
something and feel like you achieved
something for the day we run hackathons
at chican code and we were so surprised
that
um the ladies that attended our last
hackathon they’d never attended a hack
and there were lots of fresh ladies
there that just wanted to come for the
day connect to people and work on a
project and we loved that we’re like
it’s absolutely fantastic that they felt
confident confident enough to come and
meet with the community
um because you’re absolutely right just
being able to work with learning how to
work with other people work as a team
achieve something
um you know and and learning how to use
those languages in you know uh real
world scenarios makes such a difference
than just learning something within a
boot camp and thinking well I know how
to do it but I’ve never actually applied
it to any project and make make such a
difference
um we’re almost out of time and I’ve got
one last question for you is there
anything that you wish someone would
have told you about tech before you
joined um any any advice that you would
like to share with our listeners
yeah I think a piece of advice is
to realize that you don’t have to know
everything yes
I’m always expecting you to know
everything either when I first started
in the industry I had a huge wave of
imposter syndrome you know I was working
in a company that I had only dreamed of
working in and with people who had made
games that I played growing up it was
just a crazy time and I wanted to be
just as good as they were kind of
forgetting that they’ve been working in
this industry for 10 15 years they had
made a million mistakes that I taught
them all of these things that I was you
know also making the same mistakes and
learning from
um and so that I feel like that that
kind of mindset isolated me a bit I
didn’t want to show that I didn’t know
anything and so you know secretly asked
questions to like one person and then I
started realizing though that you know
the fastest way to learn is by asking
questions by leveraging the experiences
of others why bother going through the
same pain
that somebody had to do already when you
could just learn from their experience
and just do it much faster yeah and even
if you fell I was thinking foul fast and
just move on it’s fine but not all
companies encourage that as well so you
know if you’re lucky enough to get in a
company that encourages you to learn and
move forward even when you fail and
celebrates when you do well as well I
mean that’s why you stay that’s where
you stayed you know
yeah absolutely I mean making mistakes
is I think the fastest way to learn it
everything goes right the first time you
make a program I mean what what have you
learned there you’re going to end up
if you make a mistake you have to figure
out why it broke you know how do you fix
it you start learning The Depths and the
intricacies of these different things
that give you that knowledge and so
making mistakes is actually a great
thing so I think it’s just a little bit
of confidence a little bit of an
understanding that it’s okay to not know
everything
we are all constantly learning you know
I finished my three four year degree and
you know by the time I left I still
needed to learn the latest things
because the industry had changed just
even in those three or four years I
still learn every single day at my work
and so it is just you know you get
comfortable with not knowing it’s just
all about being able to learn having
confidence in your ability to learn and
that will carry you through just like
the rest of your career yeah and you
just said learning at work there is that
also important it’s not just you know
fairlessness thinking I’ll kick off my
career I’ll start a coding boot camp and
then and there I go
how important is that as well once
you’re in the world of work that you get
in a company that encourages you to you
know take time out and continue learning
within your working day I mean surely
you know it’s not like you get in after
University and that’s it and you stop
learning you know it really makes a
difference which company you join
doesn’t it
yeah I’m pretty lucky because my or I
don’t even think this is necessarily
Microsoft wide grants and Microsoft does
really support learning through all
sorts of stuff like we have hackathons
company-wide hackathons like we just get
the week off to learn innovate build
something cool right but my team also
has dedicated learning and Innovation
time each week so we have like a half
day each week to just go learn some
stuff
um and it’s really helpful because at
the end of the day again the industry is
changing all the time there’s always
something new to learn there’s always
something you know that you could build
subject matter expertise to bring it
onto the team in which you can then
share with the rest of the team so teams
that encourage learning are really going
to be the ones that stay on the
Forefront of what’s happening in the
industry and are building up team
members that can provide value for many
years and I think you’ll end up becoming
stagnant quite quickly if you don’t
keep learning and you know just by
simply taking on tasks that are
somewhere outside of your area of
expertise is a really good way of just
learning on the job and you know write
down your steps and share it with
somebody else and now you’ve made twice
as much impact yeah yeah that is a
lovely point to end on because we are
already out of time Holly thank you so
much it is flown by
um and it has been a pleasure having you
on um because our ladies absolutely love
you as part of our community anyway so
it’s absolutely lovely to have you on
the podcast as well so thank you so much
yes thank you so much for having me this
has been so fun I love talking about
these things
it’s good to hear
um but to everybody listening as always
thank you so much for joining us and we
hope to see you again next time
