hello everyone and thank you for
listening in again I am Kaylee Bateman
the content director at chican
code and
today we’re going to be discussing
equality within future space settlements
since the 1960s Space Race strides have
been made within the industry but while
advancements in space
Tech have moved
one area where the dial has stalled is
diversity the figure of women in the
International Space industry is just 20
percent a figure that hasn’t changed
within that figure only 11 of astronauts
have been women and just four black
women in history have been to space but
with the fight for equality still raging
on Earth how can we be expected to
create equality in space now thankfully
I have the wonderful Jesse Shanahan with
me today to discuss this Jesse is the
chief technology officer at another
round astrophysicists and dis
ability
hello thank you so much for having me on
thank you for joining us today what an
interesting topic that we’re going to
talk about so I’m pleased that we’ve got
somebody with your experience
um here to chat about it with us before
we cover this topic though
um could you give us a little background
about yourself please yeah of course so
I’m American and born and raised in the
US where I went to University and I
initially studied Linguistics and then I
actually ended up switching uh post back
and studying astrophysics but instead of
continuing with a
career in Academia I
made the change to to Industry where I
moved up through various roles working a
lot with AI
ethics and the humanitarian
but space is still a big passion of mine
I’ve done you know some science
communication and writing around space
and the intersection of disability
advocacy and space science is really
really interesting because I think space
gives us some opportunities that maybe
we don’t have on Earth so excited to
talk about that today but currently I
live in Sweden and like you mentioned
I’m the CTO for another round a company
focused on improving the accessibility
and diversity within the fitness
amazing I mean and we’ve got so much to
cover today as well so we’re gonna jump
straight in um because I know our
community are super interested to hear
about southern diversity in space so
we’re going to jump right in with um how
far off do you think we are from
building space settlements
this is such an interesting question
a lot more goes into it right and it
it’s a bit of a circumstantial question
as well because it depends on who we’re
building those space settlements for if
we’re talking about these efforts to
build Elite space hotels for the Mega
Rich that’s probably closer than say
having a colony that’s accessible to
everyone of course but I still think
we’re probably a good 30 40 years away
from it uh there’s it’s extremely costly
and there are a lot of challenges
everything gets difficult in space and
so it’s not just just the same thing as
building a settlement here on Earth of
course so I do think we’re quite a bit
of ways from it but I think that the
conversations you know like the one you
and I are having need to happen now so
that we can plan accordingly we can try
to do this the best way we can we’ve
kind of always maintain that space
affords us an opportunity to have a bit
of a blank slate to not repeat the
mistakes that we’ve made on Earth and I
building habitat that’s maybe on mars or
the moon do keep that into you know keep
in mind because we we have a chance to
do it better at the very least
yeah yeah I agree it is absolutely
um imperative that we start talking
um and and as well you know the the the
Mind goes you know what what do you
think these settlements will look like
do you you know will there be a home
from home will we be able to work from
space build a life what what what do you
think they’re going to look like
oh I mean this is where science fiction
also kind of affords us the ability to
dream and to have so many different
visions of the future so I think the the
the first space settlements will
probably be very rudimentary and staffed
kind of similar to the ISS with
astronauts and experts because the
initial colonies will be very hazardous
maybe even life-threatening and
eventually though I’m hoping that they
will expand and there’ll be a place for
everyone and I think to appeal to kind
of a general population maybe not so
much space enthusiasts but your everyday
person they’re going to need to have the
same utilities the same accessibility
the same Comforts that we we do expect
at home now I think the kind of Middle
Ground there are these space hotels that
are kind of in orbit around the Earth
and I think that will be a middle ground
though right now of course they’re
they’re aiming at a very elite Rich
population which of course is not your
um but yeah I do think that the initial
settlements will probably leave much to
be desired for science fiction fans but
of course every technology you have to
build the simplest version First you
proof of concept that then you can
expand on and so I think that initial
success is going to be critical even if
it’s not as flashy as you know Sci-Fi TV
yes yes we have to start somewhere don’t
um and our human settlements in space
important I mean would you say they are
oh now that’s a it’s a more complicated
question than it initially seems because
I think all human beings have an innate
desire and curiosity to explore yeah but
colonization is a tricky subject and
it’s one that has been done very poorly
and harmfully on Earth and so it’s
something that we should be very mindful
about when considering settlements on
other planets now with the way climate
change is is going on Earth it’s
probably going to be a necessity at
least for the survival of the human race
and eventually over populations scarcity
of Natural Resources it will become
necessary at some point in the future of
humanity that we will will need to
it’s better for us to use the solar
sy
stem that we have as a testing ground
get good at this now before it becomes a
crisis and we really have to uh but
obviously the the areas that we’re
looking at in our own solar sy
stem
aren’t really conducive to human
habitability so we’re kind of starting
this out on hard mode we’re not going to
you know an Earth-like planet that has
breathable air and abundant water where
we are kind of starting with colonies on
Barren very hostile planets and moons
which in a way is a good thing we’ll get
we’ll get a lot of these challenges out
of the way early which I think is
important for for obviously future
yes and you’ve mentioned the mega Rich a
um obviously when when we think of space
uh travel at the minute we think of the
likes of Elon Musk for instance
how accessible do you think space travel
well it certainly isn’t now uh I think
both from from what I just mentioned
from the standpoint of Finance Financial
kind of viability as well as being
physically accessible there’s a lot that
the human body goes under when we
jettison someone off into space and
that’s not really something that
everyone can do I’m hopeful in the
future though that especially if we want
to consider the kind of sustainable
Equitable expansion that you and I are
talking about we’re going to need to
make it accessible we’re going to need
to make it something that your everyday
person can do are we there yet
goodness no we are quite far from that
it is extremely expensive and uh like I
mentioned it’s it’s really hard on the
body and the mind space right now is
very isolating and I’m astronauts you
know have spoken about the challenges of
say being on the ISS and being cut off
and being confined these are much much
smaller spaces that they’re confined to
for long periods of time then we’re
really accustomed to and there’s no
reason to think a colony will be any
different we’re going to want to be
really efficient with our use of
materials when we start out and so kind
of a luxury apartment is not really what
we’re going to be going for and so
that’s going to be really challenging
yeah yeah and we’ve mentioned obviously
um a few times here which is what our
main discussion is today and and if if
we haven’t achieved equality on Earth
how can we ensure that we achieve this
in space is it as you mentioned just
something that you know we we do from
um in terms of who works in the industry
um or is it a little bit more than that
I think it’s it’s a lot of things I
think who works in the industry is
important right there’s this concept in
disability advocacy of you know having
the voices and lived experience of the
people who are marginalized they need to
represent themselves we can’t have
people in power kind of speaking for
them you know nothing about us without
us and I think that’s a really really
important concept so we do we need
but we also need the policies and kind
of the the strength of the law behind it
as well and this is really important and
I kind of advocate for this approach to
a lot of different things but you need
the top down and the bottom up you need
to build representation and the right
voices at the table but you also need to
have that structure that regulations and
law provide because unfortunately
you you have to go in it kind of with a
risk
mindset you can’t always trust that
these companies are going to do the
right thing and right now we’re seeing
the commercialization first of space
travel and so you you really can’t trust
for-profit companies to always have
ethics in mind as a priority and so we
need the we need compliance we need law
in order to provide that structure to
prevent you know I think some of the
yes yeah I completely agree there
um instead of just you know hoping that
it will just happen because you know
we’re trying to make changes
um on Earth within other companies
um I just wanted to ask you there a
little bit about about your
um obviously your
career you you’ve had
of our ladies listening would just love
you know if they were thinking about
it’s such ah I love this question and I
get asked it a bunch it really depends I
would say first on what you’re
passionate about that’s something you
can’t you can’t lose that thread of
curiosity and interest Tech is massive
it’s a huge huge field and so find
something about it that’s interesting
that could be maybe you come from an art
background you’re interested in design I
would guide you towards you know
front-end UI ux type work if you maybe
instead have a passion for Applied math
and statistics I might point you towards
machine learning there’s a lot of
different places to start one thing I
would really encourage people to do is
to not let a lack of a degree hold them
back degrees are important in a lot of
fields and they can be requirements and
don’t worry even if you see them on a
in tech there is a broader
mindset you
know your your portfolio maybe some
certification some classes you took
online these things can really showcase
skill and transferable skills especially
that maybe a degree doesn’t
so I would say the vast majority of
people I work with don’t have degrees in
Tech so don’t let that hold you back
but you know find that find that aspect
of it that you’re interested in there
are things that are really broadly
applicable learning a programming
language for example you learn your
first one then you learn one more and
suddenly the more and more you learn it
becomes easier especially to kind of
um but yeah that’s I I would I would
recommend not lose feeling like you have
to give up on what you’ve done with your
career so far in fact the the people
that I’ve worked with that have had
those non-traditional paths they’ve
brought so much more to the table
whether it’s you know I’ve worked with
people who had law degrees people who
were previously biologists who even you
know just uh opera singers and they
bring so much to the table through that
lived experience through all of that uh
strange skills that you wouldn’t expect
but it’s a different perspective and I
think we need a lot more of that in Tech
so unless you desperately want to leave
that part of your career behind which is
totally fine as well I would say don’t
feel like you have to turn your back on
it see what ways you can kind of find
the union between what you’ve done so
far and the Very broad field of
yeah yeah okay and I hear that a lot as
well I think as well I hear that that
quite daunting do you find that as well
particularly space Tech I mean you know
people must find that quite intimidating
to think you know what probably a career
in space Tech is not for me
it’s intimidating for a couple of
different reasons and same with space
talking about technology broadly for a
it’s actually rooted a little more in
misogyny and here’s why you know as as
we look through history and we see
respected professions as the percentage
of women in those professions has
increased we’ve seen that the reputation
for the difficulty of that profession
and I think that Tech is is you know
it’s very male dominated and I don’t
think it’s any different you know
there’s a reason that biological
easier than say electrical engineering
well biological engineering has a lot
more women in it and I don’t think I I
you know I see this as well actually
with Humanities versus stem and I think
unprofitable debate I don’t think it
helps anyone and having been on both
a degree in Humanities as well as a
difficult they’re both challenging but I
do think that a lot of this has to do
with who’s doing the work
so you have that you have that kind of
environment to start out with right and
it is a bit there is kind of this you
elitism I found with especially in
male-dominated industries that there’s a
competitiveness and need to prove
yourself and I remember this actually
happening in my own career where
I was the only non-man on a team for the
years and years of my career and then I
remember the first time I worked on a
team of almost entirely women
I was never asked to prove myself my
skills were if I said I know how to do
something it was just accepted you know
they welcomed me and supported me and I
didn’t feel like I had to earn respect
it was given of course it could be lost
but it was given freely to start out
with I was given the benefit of the
doubt in a way that I had never
so I think that that’s that’s kind of
the broader context when we’re talking
about how Tech is intimidating
I think there’s another side of it which
is Tech moves rapidly there’s always new
technology coming out so I can say that
you have to get very very comfortable
with not knowing things and I think I
see this in a lot of people who
led to kind of build a deep narrow
expertise in something and feel like you
have to know everything about that
narrow Topic in Tech you got to get
really comfortable with there being
portions of it that you don’t know about
by all means pursue your curiosity you
know fill those gaps where you want but
it’s so broad that no one person is
going to know everything and there’s
gonna be something new that comes out
that you you don’t know about and that
can be really intimidating for people we
kind of as a species I feel like are
very uncomfortable with the unknown and
and that kind of brings me to why space
science is challenging and feels
intimidating you’ve got this whole you
know everything I’ve talked about in
Tech already and on top of that you’re
dealing with one of the most hostile
environments known to man
and that’s if that isn’t challenging I
don’t know what is and so I think I
think it’s the combination of those two
things that can lead to it seeming I
don’t know inaccessible and intimidating
to kind of people who are interested yes
yeah and you just touched um upon
um there as well as is a perfect lead
into my next question actually
um you you you created the hashtag
um disabled and stem I mean you’re a big
advocate for disability Justice and
accessibility so how can we ensure those
with disabilities are not forgotten in
in addition to that though I mean again
you need to have disabled Engineers
disabled space scientists working on
these problems but also if you don’t
you’re running some pretty massive risks
there’s actually a lot of work being
done looking at how disabilities might
in space provide advantages that they
don’t on Earth so one example I like to
tell of this is Commander Hadfield who
is the commander of the ISS previously
he tells this story about I think he was
doing an Eva if I remember right and
something happened with a suit where
like uh some kind of fluid dripped into
his eye and he was blinded
and he had to navigate with no sight
something that for the vast majority of
us even with a lot of training we
probably would be as sighted people very
uncomfortable with that whereas a blind
astronaut would have no problem
similarly the Mrs and this is a really
important point that I’d like to make
whenever talking about accessibility is
when you focus on disability and you
remove barriers for disabled people you
actually improve things for everyone
now it should be enough the value of
improving things for you know disabled
people should be enough of a uh you know
of a reward for us to pursue that in and
of itself but it really does improve
things for everyone so for example
uh on the ISS it’s really important that
a lot of the equipment goes in the exact
same place every time and so this is
when in a panic if something goes wrong
people can rely on muscle memory they
know exactly where you know their fire
extinguisher is where you know a
particular tool is now that’s the exact
same thing a blind person would need as
well they would need things to be in a
the same location and easy to access
and so when we design things for
we improve it for everyone we make it
better because one not everyone who
actually has a disability views it that
way we think like there’s some kind of
you know line where suddenly you’re
disabled and suddenly you’re not when
really it’s kind of more of a gradient
and there are people who live with
you know they live with things that one
person might call a disability but they
don’t see it that way so they never know
to ask for help they never know to ask
for accommodations whereas when we build
things with them in mind removing
barriers from the start we don’t rely on
you know the the well in the US the
financial access to get diagnosed with a
disability and to receive care to to be
considered disabled in kind of the
formal sense of the word we don’t rely
you know that’s that’s a really
important thing that that kind of adds
to a power imbalance is making people
come forward and say I have a disability
here’s what it is here what here’s what
If instead we build our space station
our space Colony with disabled people in
I think we’ll find that that it’s better
for for everyone every person who who
yeah and just just the um the way that
people think as well on the team the way
that a team thinks um and works together
I mean diversity as a whole just
ensuring that you know people if a
product’s about to release and somebody
comes forward and says you know what hey
have you thought about this you know
that’s not my experience and instead a
product can go out and it can be an
absolute PR disaster but nobody was
there actually to point out that you
know it affects um a certain group in
society and that having those people on
the team just would have ensured that
you know that embarrassment hadn’t have
happened in the first place
um so
NASA hopes to land the first woman
on the Moon by 2024. so what more um Can
a space industry do on Earth to increase
female representation we spoke a little
bit you know about this already and
about um and getting more women
um what else do you think we can do to
yeah so I think you know I’m actually
going to talk about one thing that I
don’t see talked about a lot I think if
space science things like that you’re
gonna see a lot of recommendations about
rep you know representation having
people at the table all the things that
we’ve been talking about so rather than
reiterating all of that I want to point
out something that I don’t think is
talked about enough which is the
inequalities when it comes to how
technology is built and what I mean by
that is the safety mechanisms the space
suits the chairs themselves every aspect
of that is typically designed for buy
and so if you really want to start
talking about improving things there are
obviously all the things that we’ve
already talked about that you can do to
improve it but a critical aspect
is to start testing on designing for and
does having things be designed by women
because there’s going to be this
perspective that we desperately need and
they’re going to be issues that haven’t
been thought about and so I’m kind of
oh what was it I mean I in my own
personal story I’m reminded of when I’m
volunteering for the fire department
that finding equipment that fit me as a
smaller person was very very challenging
um and and kind of making do with men’s
equipment that’s kind of been oh ad hoc
last minute kind of adjusted for you
raises not only comfort problems but it
also raises safety problems and I think
there’s you know a lot of research
that’s come out yes about you know say
um vehicle testing and seat belts and
how air bags are designed to preserve
the safety of men but actually are
harmful to women things like that that I
think this is a really important area
that we need to focus on in space
science launching people logic humans
into space is so dangerous it is
incredibly dangerous it is incredibly
difficult we need to make sure that all
of the equipment that we’re building the
Colony that we someday build the
tools that we have people use are
accessible to everyone and are built by
and designed for everyone and I think
this is this is a really critical aspect
because you can get as many women as you
want in the room but if there’s no
spacesuit that fits them they’re not
and I think that’s that’s something that
really needs to be considered and
yeah and in space I mean that you know
it would be incredibly dangerous it you
remind me actually of them when I was a
young reporter I was sent you get sent
off on um lots of strange things to
cover stories and I had a trip down to
through the sewers in London and I
um everything that I had to put on was
made for men and considering the
smallest pair of boots they had were a
size seven and I am a size three when I
had to go down a ladder with these boots
on I was incredibly dangerous and I kept
thinking to myself please you know don’t
fall head first in in uh silver water
and I remember this this you know they
were they were quite concerned about
that everything that I had on was
made for men and it just hadn’t crossed
their mind that you know what they might
actually have a lady work there one day
um I absolutely agree it’s you know and
not just having people work there but
have their people to to design it and
women to design it as well
um so it’s not to safe but it’s
um as well absolutely agreeing how
dangerous that could be in space yeah
especially where you know it really is
life and death and like you said having
having that experience right you knew in
that moment wow this is an environment
yeah and this is this is the argument
that I make when you know and I hear
this a lot is oh women want
representation until it comes to the
grimy work until it comes to you know
undersea welding and things and it’s
like no actually there’s plenty of women
who want all of this dangerous and dirty
work but the second they step into these
environments everything from the design
of it to the way they’re treated tells
them you are not welcome here and I
think that’s something that whereas it’s
probably better I would say in in space
science than some other areas there’s
still a lot of work to do yeah I think
yeah you’ve hit the net on the head
there with the feeling welcome because
there’s a there’s always been that
problem in the tech industry about not
just you know making sure that ladies
come into the industry but how do we
retain them as well and you’re
absolutely correct if if they don’t feel
welcome in their environment then you
know that lady will leave
um we would have lost another another
valuable asset to to the space tech
industry just we we are already out time
and the conversation has flown by
because that was such an interesting
conversation to have and a really unique
topic to have on our
podcast so thank
you so much for taking the time to come
um about space Tech and we’d love to
have you back in the future as well to
hear more on the subject and to hear
more about your career so thank you for
joining us of course thank you for
having me and I’d love to be back
there’s so much more to talk about it’s
hard to squeeze it into a time slot but
hopefully we’ll have you know time in
the future to talk more yes yes we we
will definitely um fit you in again
thank you for everybody for listening in
again today we hope to see you again