In this empowering podcast, we embark on a transformative journey with Karen Worstell, Senior Cybersecurity Strategist at VMware Carbon Black, as she has a candid conversations with her younger self.
As Karen reflects on her early days, you’ll gain valuable insights into the hurdles Karen encountered as she pursued a career in tech. From overcoming self-doubt to navigating gender biases, Karen shares her wisdom and offers encouragement to their younger selves, as well as aspiring women in tech.
Tune in to experience the transformative power of self-reflection and discover how embracing your authentic self as a woman in tech can lead to a fulfilling and impactful career journey.
hello everyone and thank you for tuning in again I am Kaye bitman the content director at shean code and today we are
discussing conversations with my younger self I’ve got the amazing Karen wer
senior cyber security strategist at VMware carbon black with me today to reflect on her early career days and the
hurdles she overcame from overcoming self-doubt to navigating gender biases Karen is here to share her wisdom and
offer encouragement because we’ve all probably had that question ourselves at some point and thought what what in
Earth would I say to my younger self so thank you Karen thank you so much for joining me today oh thank you inviting
for inviting me Kaye it’s really exciting and I’m looking forward to the conversation good because it I think it
is a question that we have all thought of before what would I say to my younger self um and I’m so pleased uh that
you’re on here to discuss it can we get started with a little bit of background about about yourself
please sure uh I am a Serial sea so I think that’s what most people know me in
in my recent career and today I work for VMware I am a cyber security strategist
and I work with uh cisos and their teams in various uh companies around the world
was it always your goal to go into Tech I mean when you say ciso did did you think that you would say that when you
were younger that you one would work in the tech sector and that you would work in
security right you know um well so no when I was younger um we didn’t have PE
personal computers yet so um to be honest I am the I’m the artist in the
family the of my uh four siblings my three siblings four of us total and um
my my two brothers and my sister were all quite technical my sister actually always wanted to be an engineer and she
ended up going to Caltech and MIT um I designed Barbie doll ball gowns
and I uh I love to paint I was a
performance uh student in music I play multiple instruments um that was you
know I’m kind of the Guard I’m the gardener the that kind of thing that I
I’m 98% right brained uh it’s just not my natural tendency and I was RA raed um
by a Navy fighter pilot father who whose intention was that his girls would study
science and that we would get you know that we would have jobs someday and uh
it was quite the shock to my system um I very dutifully went to college I went to
University and I studied chemistry and molecular biology I got degrees in both of those um and I really loved
biological science I was pretty good at it and so um I worked for a time as um
research assistant in the medical school at the University of Washington um and then I had two
children and so uh we’re still I mean in those days if I wanted to do anything
with Computing I was taking my card deck to the Mainframe at the computer center at the University so uh yeah it shows
you how old I am but um that was still not my chosen profession it wasn’t until
much later when I actually found myself in a bit of a hard spot and I uh had
been out of the work field for a while I had chosen to spend time with my two
small children um and it became apparent that I was going to need to find a good
paying job and I ended up my about that same time
my brother came came over with a trs8 model 1 computer laid it out across the kitchen table he said sister you need to
learn to code and um and I found it to be a
really interesting creative outlet for me I was um coding coding to me was
total creativity like it was you could make anything it was it was it it tapped
into a lot of my systems thinking that I had been trained in and and you know University but also um had this had this
really fun component to it so uh I found out that I was really good at it and when I went to um oh a local University
to where I was living at the time opened up a computer science department in a new graduate program in um computer
science and I thought hm and so I went ahead and uh applied for that in spite
of the fact that I had no money and I didn’t think I was going to be very good at math and I had two really small
children um and to my surprise I got accepted and with grants and credit
cards and uh lots of help from my mom babysitting I managed to get my master’s
degree in computer science in a couple of years so when I started in in my
first job information security was kind of not a thing yet there were
three uh three products in security three total two of them were for IBM
mainframes and one of them was government furnished crypto care so
this this world that we live in today just wasn’t even
imagined um we were still hacking the University’s computer was ran VMS
version 4 so like security was just not some people
were still dealing with um you know the the darpet the the the military Network
it was our source for email and um yeah whole different
world yeah yeah and I I just want to clarify for our listeners I didn’t know Karen was gonna say that because she
doesn’t look like she has that much experience behind her and the world was that different um back then um so yeah
it’s so interesting always to hear though um the uh how you’re encouraged
to go into a certain area and you you know and and so interesting as well that that came from some of your siblings um
and and your father and to hear kind of what encouraged you to to go down that
path and and I love it when people on here say they didn’t know as well that Tech was going to be so creative because
I hear that so often people just think it’s coding I’m going to get in and I’m going to put my headphones on it’s not
going to be very creative and then most coders that have been on here chatting with me say you know I
didn’t know I could be creative and come up with things and Sol problems um and
it’s almost like one of those best kept secrets in Tech but it’s creative how how
bizarre yeah yeah yeah it is more people should know that and in and the you know
it’s like with anything new like we’re we’re always looking at new technologies and new ways of delivering
technology um we’re talking like generative AI now we have another new thing we have data science um the
combination of data science and security combination of security and generative AI like those are New Frontiers we don’t
really know what they’re going to be but that’s been the opportunity that technology has provided for decades and
and I think it’s what makes it such a fun place to work yes definitely and and when you were younger obviously you um
had very different ideas about what you wanted to do and you said that you designed Barbie doll dresses and was
that what you wanted to do did you want to be a designo when you were younger is that that where that started I think
that’s probably if things had been left to their own you know just that natural course of things that’s what I did in
all my free time I I learned to sew at a very young age and I sewed by hand and
then I took sewing lessons where I could use a real machine when I was about 12 but uh I always I always designed either
first first clothes for my dolls but then I made you know I did I would do my own paper dolls and I would design their
dresses and then I would make my own clothes and so yeah that was kind of textiles and all of that for me that
tactile thing and the and the you know seeing a finish product like that for
for me it’s always been fun yes and the same intact just building things and being able to see what that looks like
at the end um yeah it’s always super interesting to hear what people wanted to be when they were younger and how
that kind of feeds into their career later in life and and and you you told us a little bit about you know your
journey into the industry after You’ got your Masters and you and you went on was it when you went into the industry was
there a a um you know the company that you got into was it what was that like
you know going into your first tech job and how did that feel you know you very
new in that area and what was that Journey like well uh I was hired as a data
analyst and but I was hired to do data anal a data analyst job for government
projects and so the the what that evolved into was administering security
for projects for the US government government that were being done at the Boeing Company and so um that’s where I
got started in the very early fundamentals of the you know computer security side so you know we ended up
doing projects like the B2 bomber the F22 fighter jet that kind of jazz um and
there came a point where my boss decided that um I needed to shift
from something that I was actually really good at and I really liked and he wanted me to do something
that I had never heard of before nobody I knew had heard of it before um and
he’s like yeah we’re going to transfer you you’re moving up into research and technology and you’re going to help
develop the security standards for the OSI operating model for distributed
computing and we’re like what’s distributed computing and it it was I
kind of went kicking and screaming I didn’t I was happy doing what I was doing and he was like no I need you to
go up here and do this other thing it turned out to be so pivotal because I it
put me on the very bleeding edge of Designing working with different
standards groups and companies like HP and IBM where we were designing the
standards of how this world of distributed computing was going to work
and how the security was going to work and it was
like nobody had thought about it before like the internet hadn’t been commercialized
yet so we didn’t have Internet connecting everything together so when we so when we anyway when I ended up
doing that job uh it introduced me to this way of
thinking about things on a very broad systems level and and looking forward I like to always say now it’s um I try to
design things for what comes after what comes next yes instead of just dealing with what’s right in front of me and uh
and it does it does speak to something that I hear often from you know young
people who are entering into the a new field is that you you can’t be what you
can’t see and and I and I I question
that to some degree because my entire career has always been stepping into a role to do something that nobody has
done before there was no road map there was no there was no blueprint there was no
there was no advisor it was like you have to go out there and figure it out and are you going to make mistakes yes
um but we’ll figure it out and it’ll be what it’ll be right it sounds like you
had a great manager as well that kind of SW some something in you that you might not have seen in yourself at that young
age and just kind of trusted that manager to think okay you know I’ll go with it I didn’t really I fought at
tooth and nail I really didn’t want to go I did not I was I was a you know and and it it speaks to this other thing
that I think people fear and that is what if I fail like what if this is what
if this is not something that I’m able to do like I had no idea I had nobody
ahead of me to tell me how this was going to work um and so yeah I was I was
afraid yeah and um it taught me a really valuable lesson it put me on the very
front edge Cutting Edge of security which paved the way for all of the other
jobs that I had down the road because I became the expert by default yeah and um I it it gave it
opened doors to so many opportunities and so many conversations at high levels in other companies that um had I not
taken that job I don’t know that that would have opened up to me yes and and you mentioned a little bit about you
know being afraid to to try something new and um you hadn’t at that point you know had the the confidence to to try
something and just think it’s okay to to foul and did you also did you ever have or do you still have that feeling of
impostor syndrome I think that’s something that we talk about a lot on here we know uh a lot of ladies feel
that way is that something that that you felt at that time and might still feel now yeah I’ve had those moments it’s
like what if everybody finds out that I’m really not who they think I am I’m
always surprised when I hear people talk about my career and say oh yeah that’s
so amazing you did incredible things what an incredible story and I’m like
yeah n not really it was really and I do I like to say you know what
extraordinary things happen one ordinary day at a time and so you you can
accomplish really quite amazing things by just showing up and continuing to do
the work uh and and saying yes to the opportunities that are hard um where I
think the impostor syndrome which so many people deal with can be a problem
is when it stops you from saying yes and and that’s typically I I’ve heard
statistics that women have that problem in particular because we assume that we
have to have 100% of everything we need in order to be successful at a at a new
opportunity right certainly I felt like I did not have what I needed to move into a new role and be successful at it
but I was and I showed that over and over again in my career that we can
figure this out as we go so I guess I’m a more like some of the guys who will
you know have zero of what they need and say yes to a new opportunity because they know they can figure it out and I
think you know women can do the just the same thing if that that’s been the
pattern of my career so yeah there were moments where I had I had doubts right like I I had a
boss one time asked me he goes we had a very difficult problem in front of us and he goes how are you going to do this
and I was like I have no idea but I promise I will figure it out I promise
and that’s being honest as well you know and and I think a lot of us have that feeling thinking you know what I have no
idea I’m gonna be honest I have no idea but it’s finding a solution and and finding your way through instead of also
sometimes this feeling like you can’t be authentic and you would have to turn around and oh you know I’ve absolutely got this but internally you’re thinking
I really don’t know how I’m going to handle this problem but I suppose again that’s finding yourself at the right
company within the right culture where you can be authentic and and
say I don’t know but I will find a way forward well I have learned but the hard
way that it’s just better to be frank yeah honestly Frank about where things
are right because trying to sugarcoat it doesn’t
um doesn’t really help I mean I’ve had I’ve had I I had one really valuable lesson I
was on a um I was the CEO of a Silicon Valley startup um I had to go in front
of a board of directors and give them an 18-month forecast and it had red ink in
it like it the very honest version was this is what this looks like you know
and they came they actually said they said said how dare you come in here and show us a forecast that has red
ink go back and fix this and make sure when you come back there’s no red ink
and I was like well how are we going to do that like how am I G to do that and
be honest yeah without you know painting a painting myself into a corner and we ended up going back and making the
forecast over again with showing it all positive but what we did was we said
these are the assumptions that must be true in order for this forecast to be
real and uh that was one of the another really great Learning lesson because
what we had then was a board who was committed to making helping us make those assumptions
true and uh um yeah that was just it’s just those lessons all along the way
that being transparent and not and not fearing what
will people think I think that’s our biggest I think that might be our biggest hurdle that the impostor
syndrome is related to what will people think if they find out the truth and I’m
like just telling the truth yes yes because I wanted to ask you about advice on on addressing these feelings and that
just being transparent and open is is one thing and I love the fact earlier you said just showing up and doing the
hard work and saying yes is another way of just getting over that imposter syndrome just saying yes and and you know being
being honest about things as well is is kind of um so important isn’t it to to addressing those feelings that a lot of
us have all all had yeah yeah there’s in in Berne Brown’s book uh atlas of the
heart she talks she she makes a very good point that in our bodies we
experience the emotion of excitement and the emotion of anxiety the exact same
way and what what’s super important about that is the language we use to
describe what we’re feeling so if I say oh my gosh this is
terrifying I don’t know what I’m going to do that’s anxiety producing and it
will guide your next steps in a certain direction opposed to if I say oh my gosh
this is the most amazing opportunity I can’t wait to figure it out you’re going to take different action depending on on
how you language what you’re experiencing and I think women in
particular we’re we’re wired to be protective we’re wired to be safe we
like security right and we tend to maybe
go on the side of anxiety and and that guides the way we
talk to others about what we’re doing and so if I say if I’m if I’m speaking
to another person and I use a lot of qualifiers because I want to you know I’m being transparent but I’m using a
lot of qualifiers about it and I’m being it’s softening my position it’s weakening my position as opposed to
coming back and being just as forthright and straightforward with no qualifiers
and telling people how it is and not being afraid to do that um I have
positioned myself as confident I’m conf I’m speaking confidently to myself as
much as I am to another person and and so there’s some things that we can all
watch for that will help as we move through our careers and and you know
look for those opportunities and have other people help us find those opportunities where where we can really
shine and show up as the you know Problem Solver and the fact that you
just said that the way that you talk to yourself you’re speaking to yourself in a very confident way we s we’re not very
kind to ourselves are we the way that that we can talk to ourselves and I I’ve said this before on the podcast it’s
sometimes as somebody told me once you should always talk to yourself how the way that you would talk to a friend
because nine times out of 10 you’re quite you know caring and and and kind to friends and like oh you know don’t do
that you know you’re going to be great but when it comes to the way that you talk to yourself a lot of people you
know you tend to put yourself down you think actually I can’t do that or I’m like you know would never say that to your best friend um so yeah sometimes
just that internal that internal speak of you know even back to our subject today what would you say to your younger
self probably just be kinder to yourself you don’t be so hard on yourself you know I was thinking about that um you’re
absolutely right it’s like don’t be so hard on yourself um it’s going to be okay you
don’t have to have it all figured out nobody has it all figured out yeah every you know people just move forward and
you know take take time to make sure you take time to focus on all the parts of
your life and don’t feel like you have to pour 110% into your job when uh where
where you’re going to feel like you’re not ever doing enough anyway just but be kinder to yourself
and and use language you know on your on your yourself watch the language watch the language you use speak with
confidence don’t qualify everything and you know in the morning um you know and
I I like to put my my my energetic music on in the morning but one of the things
I heard of from a another podcast on Mel Robbins she’s she does a high five in the mirror and so it’s like you got this
you got this whatever this day brings you’ve got it’ got it yeah you know yeah
that’s great advice yeah to that literally just say to to yourself in the morning you know whatever the DAT brings
me is going to be fine I love the facts you just brought up there that you know thinking that everybody else has
everything figured out and sometimes you feel like you’re the only one that that hasn’t got and that’s normally not true
it’s just some people are just better at hiding that they haven’t got it figured out that’s what it starts to Dawn on you
as you go through your career and you think actually I wasn’t wasn’t the only one that was thinking why is everybody
else so calm oral media doesn’t really help with that either does it you know people only share the positives and they
share all the good things and it it looks like everybody you know has their whole career mapped out and their whole
lives mapped out it’s great for celebrating each other and and and we know what for instance women in Tech
celebrating what we’re doing and and and that’s wonderful but sometimes it can have the opposite effect where people
think am I the only one that you know am am I failing am I failing in this area
have I just you know not got it figured out and everybody else looks great one one of the best pieces of advice I read
was from Jordan Peterson who said don’t compare yourself to who other people are
today compare yourself to who you were
yesterday when when we get into the comparison game it’s just it’s just such
a dead end yeah don’t you know the if if it’s if you can look at other people and
celebrate their success or their apparent success whatever it is right their their manufactured success in many
cases right go feel wonderful for them celebrate them um and then celebrate
yourself for where you are today compared to where you were yesterday that’s the game it’s not it
don’t get into the Trap it’s a trap to to be trying to look at these artificial
images and say you know how how am I measuring up I should be I should be further along I
hear this a lot I should be further along than I am right now yes and and I I got
my I got my Master’s Degree when I was 32 yeah because everybody’s journey is
different as you know exactly as you said to compare yourself to somebody else just makes you feel
like I haven’t done that yet and and everybody’s journey is is very different
um and somebody might be looking you know to you at some point and thinking well I haven’t done what they’ve done
either go it’s never good to compare that’s why that’s why I come back to
that statement every extraordinary accomplishment happens one ordinary day at a time just keep going right
and and and find find people that you can talk to about you know what can I do
next or where do you see this going or um you know find a a a sponsor wherever
you’re working who’s going to be that person that opens an opportunity for
you oh a person who um represents you when you’re not in the room
oh yes the idea of a sponsor definitely is is such good advice um to find
somebody as you said who is just when you are not present it’s just an advocate for you when when you are not
there is so valuable um and and a conversation we’ve had a few times on this podcast um of just you know Finding
Your sometimes um we had a conversation on here recently about ladies being over mentored and unders sponsored um is is
uh usually what happens so finding sponsor can be so valuable yeah it’s a
GameChanger lots and lots of men you know at some point you can get over coached yes and um you know the i i
another thing I say sometimes is that an opinion is what I’m go seeking when I
know the answer but I don’t like it yeah um and
so but I’ve I’ve also done the thing where I felt like oh I’m going to need somebody to help me with this I’m going
to need somebody to help me with this and I end up with four different coaches who are all giving me advice and
I realized in that process I was like whoa I just I just Overlook like I can’t
even focus on all of this I have so much input I don’t I C I can’t think about
where to go next they’re not saying the same thing so um you know it’s okay to
stay focused and it’s okay to to work on the
extraordinary on a narrow set of things as opposed to trying to do too many things all at once because that just
won’t ever work yes definitely and um one area I I wanted to address with you
today um was about role models and we spoke about not comparing ourselves to people but it is great to have role
models and somebody to look to for inspiration um and we’re a firm believer in Role Models here can Co do you have
any role models in the industry yourself for today yes
um you know perhaps did you have any influences at home that were really good role models for
you I you know what I am somebody pointed this out to me the other day I
surround myself with books to me books are my circle of
advisors um and I have authors Whose advice and their
worldview is really important to me so I I tend to I listen to I listen and read
a lot and um I think that’s where it comes from for me is that you know and
role models to me are more like this is a person who makes this is what how they
see making a contribution in the world uh this is how they see treating
other people in the world um those are the people that I try to
emulate yes yes I love that and and again it’s um we say on here a lot of uh
you you can’t be what you can’t see and you’re right if if somebody is putting themselves out there um and and writing
a book about you know whatever it may be that you’re reading you you can see that and you can think actually that’s
something that I um aspire to to be like that that person whatever it may maybe um if they have a trait um say being a
good leader um or something like that um definitely you know putting your story
out there even you know um the some ladies on here I love that they come on here and tell their stories because some
people don’t know that they’ve got great stories to tell um which is is bizarre
to me I I think come on and tell your story because the more people that hear about it the more you know can hear it
and and be inspired um you know and think actually that’s that’s what I would like to to do or that’s the kind
of traits that I would like to uh show somebody else as an example when I become a leader um so you’re absolutely
right just surrounding ourselves with uh with great resources can can really help
um yeah and surrounding yourselves with um uh uh people as well I wanted to ask
you a little bit about support network do you are you part of tech communities or groups is there is there anybody that
you kind of tap into for your for your network in in addition to the resources that you like to
use I’ve always believed in having one or two trusted
coaches um and I and and so I usually hire someone who I after I get to know
them um who will Who will hold me accountable to what I say I want to do
and will also reflect back to me things that they see that uh where I may be
inconsistent so I’m always looking I may I must have grown up that
way but I always look for the person I don’t want people around me who are
telling me what a great job I’m doing yeah actually I want people around me to tell me how to be
better and um and I think when we that’s just continuing to grow that’s
growth as long as we’re growing we’re living as when we stop growing we start dying so that’s how um my you know you
were talking about role models and I and I think I’ve never I’ve never said this before but I think what I’ve done is
I’ve created a composite of what my role model would be my ideal would be um and
I’ve created it on the basis of character traits so these are the character traits you know 13 character
traits and this is how I would describe the way I would like to show up in those
character traits where can I see that in another person and and and bring that
you know into make that a goal for me yeah um and and then hire somebody who
is in my support network will who will say yeah you’re doing that except this
thing you do that’s getting in your way um and that’s that’s kind of My Method
yeah yeah and I’m picking out those traits as well I suppose when you’re younger you you you wouldn’t you don’t
tend to go for for certain traits when you’re younger you’re so different in when when you start your career and the
things that you think you want when you’re younger are very different um as as you go through your career um based
on that if you could what would you tell your younger self
I would tell my younger self that
it’s the most important thing is to do what you do because you love
it not because you fear failure yeah yeah choose what you do wisely and
do it for love of what you do as opposed to fear of what will happen if you don’t
yeah instead of having that regret as well thinking yeah if you if you turn down an opportunity as you were saying
earlier you know imposter syndrome becomes that problem when you you stop saying yes to things and it gets in your
way and um yeah and then you think actually what what could have been um if
I’d actually said yes to that opportunity um or when yourself when you went Kicking and Screaming to that new
opportunity and what what you know the different direction that that that took you in um yeah that’s uh that’s really
good advice to do to do the things that that you love um instead of uh uh fearing um
failure I think as well as a society we kind of we get used to just thinking you
know that sometimes especially if you’re in the wrong company you can’t try new things because you know if you do fail
um you kind of there’s the finger pointing of you know instead of a team huddling together and thinking this is
why it fil and this is how we’re going to move forward it’s kind of just you know criticism and blame um and I think
sometimes being in a good company and a good culture uh where you can feel like you can try new things and and foul
really does help you especially when you’re quite early in your career to kind of have that confidence to keep
trying um and coming up with new things and failing and thinking it’s you know it’s okay but that I’m trying new things
um yeah I would say uh those cultures are are
rare um and I think and now I’m going to now I’m going to be the Debbie Downer on
something but here’s the the the the the truth is that people do go into what I
call The Penalty Box when something doesn’t go right um
and there can be consequences that follow them in their career path if they
stay at the same company I’m a huge advocate of moving um you will build your career so much
faster by moving around and and that does seem to be the trend nowadays that people especially in the you know
developer world uh even in the cyber security World they they move companies
quite a bit um that is that is a really
good way to avoid the protracted Penalty Box you know in the in the days when
people had a career that was at one company and that penalty box you just had to
kind of go into it and work your way out of it and I think for women that was
much harder to do um so the yeah
don’t I mean you know what the Penalty Box happens I’ve been there and um it’s
not the end of the world and you have lots of choices so it’s it’s more like
you know we have to have that talk with ourselves about you know I have I’ve learned from
this if it was my mistake I’ve learned this is what I’ve learned from it this
is how I’m framing that in as positive a a a way as possible when I talk to
myself about it and I don’t beat myself up and now I’m going to take that what I
learned there and use it in my next opportunity and uh yeah yeah I love that
just reframing it and and and thinking yep I just you know won’t do that again
or I’ll try that differently next time or yeah you are right is quite easy to get into that position where you just
beat yourself up about something um and it can really stop you from moving forward into whatever that next
opportunity is when we dwell on that stuff it’s like trying to drive a car
looking in the rearview mirror yeah you can’t see what’s in front of you because you’re just really busy focusing all
your energy in the past and um you’re also not you’re robbing yourself of the
present so it’s it’s yes done over
lesson learned move on yeah yeah and we are almost out of time I could talk to
you for another half hour on this um but I wanted to ask you one last question um
do you have any last words of wisdom or advice for our listeners I I would say
take the risk you know there’s no growth without
risk and nothing is risk-free and women we love security we do love that um but
growth is way more fun yeah and um you know you like you
like I said compare yourself to who you were yesterday and and just keep in mind
that in every obstacle that you’re going to encounter you’re going to learn something it’s a it’s all about learning
every obstacle we encounter that we overcome one way or
another um even if we fail is going to be the learning opportunity for what
comes after what comes next yeah just just learning from your mistakes and and being Kinder um to yourself um I love
that I I absolutely love this episode today thank you so much Karen for for taking the time to chat with me it’s
been an absolute absolute pleasure having you on here so thank you so much oh the pleasure is all mine thank you so
much and to everybody listening as always thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time
