Working in cybersecurity is often viewed as a job centred around technical skills and long hours, which has played a large part in it becoming a male-dominated industry.
The reality of the matter is these technical skills can be taught on the job and softer, more human skills, such as being able to communicate effectively, are equally as important.
To talk all things cyber and to help break down cybersecurity stereotypes, we’re joined by Renske Galema, Area VP for Northern Europe, CyberArk.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
hello everyone thank you for tuning in again I am Kaylee Boatman the content director at chican code and today we’re
discussing breaking stereotypes around cyber security now working in cyber security is often viewed as a job
centered around technical skills and long hours which has played a large part in it becoming a male-dominated industry
but the reality is technical skills can be taught on the job and softer more human skills such as being able to
communicate effectively are equally as important to talk all things cyber and
to help break down these stereotypes I’m joined today by the amazing red stack gallima area VP for northern Europe at
cyborg hi thanks for having me thank you so
much for joining us um it’s a pleasure to have you uh with us we actually haven’t had um the topic of cyber
security um in this depth before so it’s going to be really nice to delve into that I know
a lot of our ladies in the community are interested in careers um in it so it’d be really interesting
um to hear your expertise on that today to kick off though can we start with a little bit of background about yourself
please yes absolutely so uh I’m based in Amsterdam and
um I’ve spent my whole career in cyber security really um I’ve studied uh Information
Management in the University of applied science and then I went into a couple of
really long stays at companies so I stayed with one
company for 18 years really grew up wow company looking at different aspects of
Sales Management that’s uh that’s what I do and spending time in Sweden spending
time in Eastern Europe and Russia and obviously also the Benelux because that’s my my hometown
um after that I I did an MBA the Erasmus University April to them and
now I’m here at Cyber Arc for almost five years so I look after northern Europe which is the the UK Ireland the
Nordic countries and the Benelux and yeah I’m enduring it very much yeah and
I understand you’re like a very loyal employee by the sounds of it was was
there any reason why you stayed at that particular company was it was it something about the culture that you
really loved and you thought you know what I I really want to to stay here it’s interesting in hindsight maybe I
should have uh left sooner obviously I mean I was very young when I got there I was like 24 25 I grew up in that company
but um in hindsight I think um it’s kept me back a little bit I am a
loyal employee I I work all hours of the day trying to achieve what I have to
achieve and if it’s not going the way we planned I would blame myself first right
but um so in hindsight I think it should have made a couple of jumps to grow
faster basically yeah yeah yeah I’m sure that there’s there was something
um about that company that kept you that you probably saw um actually when when you jump ship to
cyber Arc anyway that there must have been something there where you thought that kind of mirrors what I’m used to in
terms of a great culture yeah the culture at cyborg is really something else and
um talking about inclusivity it’s something I find here is anyway there is as a big portion a female uh colleagues
um but the the culture is much more uh one of teamwork let’s do this together I
really like uh the company where I stayed so long um was a little bit different with one
of the the things I learned there and the big adventure I had there was I uh a
man it’s eastern Europe Russia uh and the former Russian stage for about eight years and that was it’s a huge Adventure
culturally totally not comparable to cyborg but I would say it’s just it was
the same mindset of let’s see how we can develop these areas and go for it so
they’re also a big uh attention for me yes yeah and we have uh so much to to
get through today on the topic of cyber security so could we kick off um for our listeners could you give us a
quick summary of what cyber security is and and what it involves absolutely yes so um basically if you
look at uh businesses that keeping their data safe keeping their IP and their and
the employees safe um making sure the data stays put states where it needs to be that’s what cyber
security is and more specifically and why am I at this company is uh the the
element of identity security from it so you can do a lot of uh Security on the
outside of company at a firewall anti-fires um with identity security is much more
about keeping the identities within a company uh safe and um our tagline would
be is Think Like an attacker we think inevitably and hacker could come in but
how can we minimize the risks there how can we minimize what uh this this hacker
can still or uh steal data or maybe ransomware the organization and we do
that by securing all the identities human or non-human which is uh to me is
really the next level in um in cyber security yeah and when when
um the the company that you worked for was acquired and you went over to cyber security it must have sounded I mean did
they describe it the way that you just described it there because it sounds like there’s quite a clear mission that
it was some people say you know coming into Tech they’re not quite sure what their job is going to be there are
certain roles where you kind of hear data scientists is one we hear on on here a lot when people say you know I
kind of know what the role is but I don’t know what I’m going to be doing but cyber security it sounds very clear Mission keep keep things safe keep data
safe I should say keep identity safe it’s a very clear mission that you have I’m assuming that’s you know one of the
many things that you you love about working inside no it’s true but when I
first uh rolled into cyber security I found it was much more of giving our
customers fear like oh this could happen that could happen you have to protect for it that’s not how it is right now
because they if you’re only selling on fear or rather compliance you could say
well I’ve got the solution I’m not using it but God it’s I’ve got the tick in the Box
um right now the industry is much more about okay how can we
apply the security in such a way that you can optimize your productivity and I think
that balance is something that I’m I’m really passionate about because if you Ultimate Security would be you can you
can’t do anything it’s super secure but your business laws are not survived so where is that balance that’s really
um what um makes me tick and that it has been my uh
um it has been my passion over all these years yeah I love the fact that yeah you
completely look at it from the positive side of as you said optimizing productivity and not from a side of fear
because you’re absolutely right I’ve heard that before um about the cyber security community
that as a community it’s quite a paranoid Community is always thinking the worst and I know
an element of that is you know thinking how an attacker would think
um but looking at it from from you know the positive side how to optimize the productivity yeah and in a way it’s a
red race especially if you only focus on the uh on the outside right a hacker is
is making a certain step how can we remediate it if you turn it around and
you you say let’s make sure a hacker just cannot get anywhere all of a sudden the red races turn
around and uh the cyber security is is in the leads and and that’s I think it’s
a quite an intriguing way of looking at it how did you get into cyber security I
think it’s got you know even describing it there I think some people can I think
I think they think they understand what it is but perhaps a career in it is not something that they would consider it
how how did you get get into that is it something that I mean you said you started at a company quite young but did
somebody point you in that direction or did you just see something and you thought that’s that’s for me it’s it’s a
friendly story um because I was originally working in process Automation and
um and the the company I worked for was acquired by a big cyber security company
and they they actively uh took me over on the cyber security side and um
I was really um really intrigued by it I like this
having this look in the kitchen of of a customer and um I’m quite passionate
about helping the customer making sure their security is on par with what it
should be but it also makes sure that their processes are running like normal
and um so it needs to be optimized in multiple ways optimized like maximum
security but also optimize that the operation can can run through I mean are
there other things about your career in cyber that you find exciting it sounds as well like you must work with so many
different clients you must work across so many industries that that you know your day must must be very you know
varied yeah it’s super varied um um especially because I’ve got quite a large region
and so it’s it’s a I speak to financial services customers public customers uh
in all these uh countries um it’s really interesting to see uh how
they’ve slightly differ also in in the way they do business obviously they’re common denominators but um a Swedish
company will act much more in okay are we all in agreements if everyone is in
agreement then we take the step whereas more in the UK it’s um it’s it’s
organized in a different way it’s it’s really interesting to see that it’s nothing to do with cyber security as
such but um very much about how organizations um have structured themselves it’s quite
uh fun to look at yeah yes yeah and so like most areas of tech then cyber
security is very male dominated but why should women consider a career in cyber do you think that to me it’s so
intriguing why this is male dominated but it is so let me ask you a question
um if you think about a hacker describe what what are you seeing if you think about a hacker you immediately
think of a male sitting there you know how do you up right they’re trying to have somebody exactly because why
um I think um it is a misconception that this is
super technical or um very heavy lifting on um on on
um data mining or or coding
um I’ll give you the example for Big Data uh the um percentage females in Big Data is a
lot higher than it is in cyber security don’t ask me the number I don’t know the
by heart um but there isn’t that much difference so big data is and cyber security it is
about data it is about finding patterns and um it shouldn’t be male dominated but it is
it has some sort of uh image that I think we need to reset
um because if we are not resetting it we are also
going to have a problem we cannot solve in cyber security there are a lot more
people are needed in uh in cyber security there is it’s constantly growing
if we only look at one part of the population we we do ourselves this
service we have to be much more inclusive so we will have to actively
work on changing our Emirates there yes I agree because when
um even the Press when we write stories about cyber security and you’re looking
for an image to go with that story you instantly go with the stock image that first shows up and it’s the guys sitting
in his laptop you know in a black hoodie it has a dark dark covering over his face or something so you can’t see who
it is and you just you’re absolutely right you see it everywhere and in the tech industry we talk so much about you
can’t be what you can’t see in this changing the the the
um the imagery that we see throughout the industry is so important even when it comes to the hackers and the bad guys
you know who who they are yeah just to seem more appealing um to women wanting to work in the
industry because diversity within the industry it’s it is so important isn’t it it’s just you know not just within
your own team and Company but you know industry-wide yeah it’s very
important um if we are more inclusive we will find
um I think we will include all the ways of working of all the people
um we will have a variety of skills available
um there will be a lot more sub skills that are really important here as well communication and we need the
um the whole mesh of skills to continue in this vet race that I talked about and
um if we if we don’t do that we might miss out on very clever ways to um to to stay
ahead in the in the red race and we need to do that by combining multiple skills by combining multiple points of view
and where you just mentioned soft skills there is it something that you hear a lot that
is quite disappointing to hear actually that throughout the tech industry people just think I need the technical skills I
need my degree computer science degree whatever it is you come out and you join a company and that’s it so actually you
must use a whole range of soft skills every day I mean you just mentioned communication skills there
um I suppose it’s kind of and that would put off a lot of females as well wouldn’t it come in and thinking well
perhaps I don’t have the necessary um technical qualifications I won’t go for a certain role
um and actually don’t realize that they’ve picked up so many other you know valuable soft skills along the way and
they would be quite well suited for a job perhaps in cyber and don’t don’t even realize no absolutely I got two
examples there if you if talking about communication um a big part of the the work my team
does and I do is talking to customers and if you if you cannot
um if you cannot translate what the customer is saying and come back with an answer that maybe has some technical
background but it’s it’s um it’s set in a way that a customer can understand it
um then it’s very difficult to build up the trust trust is very important in our
industry so this is vitally important but another thing and I’ve got a quick
anecdote um I uh I did an MBA as I said and I started the NBA because I felt I was
managing too much um emotion and I thought okay I need more hard facts I
need more uh wisdom going to do this MBA fast forward to the day that I was
defending my thesis and you defend your teases you go out in the hallway the professor prepares and
then you come back in and you get your grade and and he said before I start renske let me say one thing really clear
the your biggest skill is your empathy is your emotion and I was like
that as something that might have been holding you back exactly so when I
started um empathy was sometimes mistaken as weakness and that’s something I’m now
fighting very hard again so I have embraced this I think empathy is
a really great leadership skill to have and it’s a great way to motivate people
so yes soft skills communication empathy other soft skills I would say is what
brings this together if you’re just having very uh smart ideas on how to
beat uh cyber crime but we have no way in cooperating in teams with our
customers with our partners then we’re not winning yes I I wanted to ask you next about
what companies can do to support women in cyber but actually from what you just said that even if a company
um were to be more mindful about you know what they put out there in a job application or you know how they’re
viewed by the rest of the community in terms of are you are you looking for you
know people that are um empathetic are are you looking for a certain type of leader not just necessarily we need this
qualification that qualification that’s that’s really gonna attract a whole new pool of people yeah no I I think um I
think other companies also have realized that the way your uh the job description
is is written is really important to attract um all uh kinds of people so yeah I
think that’s super uh important of course a lot of other things that uh
that we should do and we can do um I’ll I’ll give you one that is so super
obvious but it’s around uh the whole uh maternity leave right the number one
thing to do to make sure a we uh we keep all these females in uh in the industry
and we keep them active uh we make sure there is no question of guilt uh so I
still up to this day um have discussions with females uh pregnant saying but I will be back I I
assure you I will I will take as little time as I can is this a fact of life
right if we are not uh having um pregnancies then what will uh well
what will happen to cyber security in the in the future right if I just talk about cyber security so let’s make sure
these women can come back we retrain them if they need to we give them the
flexibility they need to combine um and we make sure or
um they feel absolutely safe and no no guilt because that’s absolutely not
needed obviously for that we also need male stakeholders to embrace that right
very important definitely and as you said it’s well it is it’s also um making
sure that their male stakeholders there that are um also set an example but I suppose
it’s it’s something to make sure that that that change is visible and that
people can can see it and like we were talking about the imagery throughout the industry it’s just making sure that these things are visible and that people
can clearly see um that you know when a lady goes on maternity leave it’s not seen as
something negative and when they come back it seems as something positive I’ve spoken to ladies on here who and they’ve
come back from maternity leave and they’ve been promoted and I spoke to one lady who um
she was interviewing um heavily pregnant and they said that
they really wanted her and she got the job and they said we’ll see you when you’re done on maternity leave but they
they got her on board even though she was going straight on maternity leave because they just wanted to secure great
time yeah and the more that we hear about that and see it um you know I wanted to ask you about
breaking down some of the stereotypes that we see in cyber and the tech industry as a whole how can we break
those stereotypes but I suppose a lot of that is down to making sure that we we continuously share those types of
stories and that we hear the great things companies are doing yeah share the stories absolutely like you said
change the images right so let’s have images of female hackers because they’re
there as well but we also need to start like really early on um at the graduates we need to make sure
that there where we set a Level Playing Fields and um
there is no difference male or female in the interest for data or being a
structured worker and so we should really um
um stimulate that I think and make sure it’s also shown because of course at
that level maybe you’re not come immediately thinking I’m going to be in cyber security but make sure there’s uh
abstracts uh more abstract um elements like data like
um solving a puzzle maybe right um is uh is attracting both male and
female and I mean I think we need to put a spotlight on that there’s a couple of
really good initiatives uh already and one is with the Cyber first schools uh
so this is from the the ncsc maybe you you’ve seen it so they’re they’re really trying to stimulate uh the the concept
of um cyber security education already at that level I think that is kind of cool
and I’m sure uh if you if you bring these programs
there isn’t there’s no one is going to say oh no that’s no that’s that’s not for me that’s a very real uh industry
that doesn’t happen um it will it will attract I’m sure of
it it will attract the boys and girls yes and and even if um
you say you’re a school that doesn’t quite understand the the types of careers that are available in Tech even
partnering with a great initiative like you just mentioned and having somebody else you know inviting somebody in and
sharing their experience of working in the tech industry and in cyber can can be so helpful I had a lady on here it
was only a couple of weeks ago and she said to me and when I was at school I had a teacher that just
you know she said that she wanted to do computer science and they were like oh no you know you don’t really want to do
that I was like oh my gosh yeah actually was trying to say to you don’t go into that area but you know not
everybody not all teachers understand all careers so that’s okay but you know just making sure
um that you know if it would be so helpful if your school was inviting the right people in the right initiatives in
so you can get a whole range of careers and ideas before you actually leave
school um would would be super helpful yeah and also to I mean my parents always
um stimulated me to go for uh for the the highest I could achieve right but
in the case maybe some families have that less you need to have to school offset that so the school has to has to
um uh push their their pupils to to go to the best of their ability that they
can do anything and there should be no fear there should be no difference um
so yeah and and then inviting some role models having some programs that entice
these kids I think would be super super helpful yes definitely and we’ve
mentioned uh substance a little bit um throughout this uh conversation you
mentioned um what something so incredibly important just being able to talk to a client and you know being able
to communicate what what they need um from you you know they’re just so
useful for a career in cyber aren’t they soft skills and it’s something that I think we we forget a lot about
a lot yeah exactly because you could be like the biggest experts uh totally
understanding uh how a hacker works and how you can stop this if you have no way
of communicating this and communication is not just uh speaking a sentence like this is what
you need to do but asking the question hearing words the customer is saying back are asking a question to to to
clarify that I understand this correctly to really understand uh the problem
because the problem in most cases isn’t well uh we see this cyber security risk
the problem in most cases is what’s going to happen to our environment if we get all these checks and balances in and
then to to being able to articulate and hear your having this concern let me
show you how if we bring in our identity security solution you’re not stopping
your primary process no you’re making it more efficient that’s where the trust grows and Trust
like I said is the most important ingredient here customer needs to trust
us trust our partners that we can bring the the right solution and therefore
yeah yeah you have to have the ability to to listen and to anticipate uh when
you’re answering yeah I think that’s something as well that perhaps you don’t
pick up until you start your first job as you you were saying before about schools and qualifications schools Focus
very heavily on you know making sure that their students get the top marks
they’re not always thinking about those those soft skills by the time you reach work you’re actually a little bit like
oh my gosh I didn’t realize I had to speak to clients let alone you know make sure that I can fully communicate what
what we’re doing as a company no exactly and having a program around that I think
would be a really good uh like on universities uh to to have workshops uh
and just have people have students make their mistakes but in a very
um safe environment so when they go into the first jobs they’ve already made these mistakes and they’ve learned from
it yeah absolutely that would be um that should be a a a standard subject next to
all the more theoretical um elements yes I love that just a safe
space to make mistakes is absolutely fine and it’s just not not so bad when you get into work um and you realize
that you know depending on where you are and and what the mistake is um that it’s okay you know to make
mistakes and fail as long as you pick yourself up from them exactly yeah yeah we we are almost out of time but I have
uh one last question for you do you have any final advice for our listeners who are thinking about a career in cyber
security I would say uh reach out uh well uh to
me any anyone in in my environment but anyone in cyber security to have a chat
to understand it’s not the heavy lifting that it may it may look like
um and it is to um to to make a start
um there was so much information available already uh online
um to select a couple of good podcasts or good websites to just uh have a look at
that and maybe speak I don’t know um to some other partners that are very
much leaving this with uh with their customers but to not approach it as like
one big container element cyber security cyber security is so many different uh
elements our part of identity security alone there it’s it’s a big Niche but uh
it’s there is there are so many aspects of it so just take one step at a time
and and try to follow what what’s your interest is is it coding is it
um more um advising to customers uh that’s a it’s a combination of things it’s not
one job in cyber security there is multiple things you can do yes I love that and just just knowing
that you know you can reach out nine times out of ten people in the tech industry they come back and you know
they give you some advice on something or they might point you in the direction of a great um Network for instance but yeah even
just finding somebody that can help you narrow down what you want to do as you said there are so many different elements even cyber security so yeah
trying to narrow down what what you know which direction you would like to go in
um next and I suppose also just realizing that even if you do pick one element at this moment in time
that it could take you off into lots of different directions as well I think sometimes we we think especially when
you’re graduating for instance you think I have to pick that one thing and that’s going to be my career forever
um but you know the tech industry can take you lots of different places absolutely and it’s going so fast look
at [Music] um um artificial intelligence or Quantum Computing I mean when I started my
career we weren’t talking about these things so it certainly wasn’t something I planned to be engaged with uh but it’s
there now and it has um connections to uh to cyber security
so it changes so fast so don’t try to eat the elephanter or boy the ocean and
take one step at a time and yeah make connections
yes yes over it’s good thank you so much we are already out of time it’s flown by so thank you so much for taking the time
to chat with us today super welcome I really enjoyed it good thank you and to
everybody listening as always thank you for joining us and we hope to see you again next time
