Ever felt like you don’t belong? Or that you don’t deserve that promotion? You could be facing Imposter Syndrome!
Imposter Syndrome is a psychological occurrence where an individual doubts their skills, talents or accomplishments. It is often accompanied by a persistent internal fear of being exposed as a fraud.
Imposter Syndrome can affect anyone, even those at the height of their career. Sheryl Sandberg, Arianna Huffington, Tom Hanks, Emma Watson and Michelle Obama have all questioned whether they were good enough. But according to research, women, especially women of colour, are most at risk of experiencing Imposter Syndrome.
In this episode, we speak to Emely Patra, Regional VP and Head of EMEA Customer Success Strategy and Architecture at Mulesoft. Emely is a pioneer for improving diversity and equality and knows a thing or two about tackling imposter syndrome and navigating a male-dominated industry.
Before moving into the MuleSoft business unit she has worked as a Strategic Advisor in Salesforce.
Emely has 18 plus years of industry experience of working with SAAS, CRM , ERP, Platform and Integration technologies. She holds a MBA in Business Systems and IT and is currently leading a team of highly experience thought leaders and architects in the digital transformation and API Led space.
She’s a Salesforce CTA and an active coach for aspiring CTAs in their journey.
Emely lives in Newbury, England with her husband and son and enjoys being a foodie, reading and biking with the family.
hello everyone and thank you for
listening in as always I am Kaylee
batesman the content director at chican
code and today we’re going to be
discussing imposter syndrome now I never
feel like you don’t belong or that you
don’t deserve that promotion then you
could be facing imposter syndrome for
anyone that doesn’t know it’s a
psychological occurrence for an
individual doubts their skills talents
or accomplishments it’s often
accompanied by a persistent internal
fear of being exposed as a fraud my gosh
haven’t we all felt like that at some
point in our lives and careers
thankfully I have a fabulous Emily Patra
regional VP and head of a mere customer
success strategy in architecture at
mulesoft with me today to discuss ways
in which we can beat imposter syndrome
for good hello Emily welcome
hi thank you for having me thank you for
for joining us today and also to discuss
um a topic that our ladies talk to us a
lot about
um and and we’ve all felt that way at
some point
um in our lives so before we get started
uh with the questions today
um can I ask you to share a little bit
about your background and yourself
please yes absolutely so my name is
Emily Patra I’ve been in the tech
industry for 20 years now uh so it’s
been a long journey and I’ve seen it
evolve from when no one was talking
about a diversity in Tech or no one
cared you know what kind of mixers we
had in the team so I think we’re in a
better place where we at least talking
about it and and we are recognizing
things like imposter syndrome and how
different genders work or how different
diverse groups work
um saying that I started my career uh as
a techie I started my career as a
software engineer then I moved up to be
be in Consulting and Enterprise
architecture and I joined Salesforce
seven years ago and after joining
Salesforce actually I got this fantastic
opportunity when we acquired mulesoft
four years ago to lead up and build
their emea team by the way EMES stands
for Europe Middle East Africa because a
lot of people ask me what the economists
so there was there was no team which
existed in in this region and I was
brought into to build a team and I’m so
glad I took the opportunity so right now
we’ve got a very established team I am a
happy leader with a happy team hopefully
they will Concur and yes and I think
I’ve had a massive opportunity to learn
and grow through these 20 years
yeah that’s interesting to say that you
started as a techie
um and as a software engineer did you
know that you always wanted to go into
Tech because I hear all the time from
ladies I fell into Tech and then
realized how you know wonderful it is in
the industry but it sounds like you had
a plan
I did have a plan uh yes so very early
uh one of I I call him my equality
champion and allies right my dad he
introduced me to Tech uh and to
computers at that time and I was just
Enchanted by the whole possibility uh
and I I enjoyed it so much I spent my
whole summer holidays learning stuff and
doing things on my own so at that point
I knew I wanted to do something with it
and it was good timing because it was an
up-and-coming career at that time and it
wasn’t uh you know it wasn’t as widely
known but with a bit of digging I found
the right courses to get into uh so yes
I did my graduation in Computer Science
and Mathematics and then I went for a
MBA but I specialized on systems which
is the word they use for you know more
I.T based management and that’s that’s
how I got into this
wow and so even with all of that
training and you knew what you wanted to
do
um have you ever felt imposter syndrome
you know how did you overcome that if
you’ve ever felt that way
um you know have you ever felt like a
fraud
all the time especially when I started
and and it does I mean there’s nothing
to be ashamed about it and think about
a 16 year old uh who doesn’t have any
any friends or any role models who are
woman to look up to who who’ve gone into
a career in in Tech uh think about uh 16
17 year old who sees only boys around
her talk about being nerdy developers
and you know write code and and geek out
about it but she’s not got a group of
peer group to share it with so it’s very
natural to feel like an imposter at that
point to feel like I don’t belong here
I’m not sure I have the skills uh to do
this and even when you achieve things
you don’t have a lot of support system
around you so when I joined computer
science uh in graduation I think we were
only two women in the whole computer
science division to be doing this course
uh so it was obviously that you know you
don’t have a group of your own
um you’re not exactly relating to people
who you know are going to get in the
industry with you and it’s been the same
for me when I got into this industry 20
years ago uh I was pretty much always
the only woman in a team the only woman
in a meeting room the only woman on a
project uh so it’s always been like that
so it’s very difficult to then know what
you’re doing right uh whether you’re
getting the opportunities because of the
right skill set are you approaching it
the correct way what are your peers
doing you have no comparative because
you all you know one thing that your
style differs from the others but you
don’t know whether it’s right or wrong
so I think yes definitely I’ve felt
imposters in Rome especially in my early
career all the time
yeah and I suppose if you’ve got nobody
to relate to as well you’ve got maybe
that you can confide in at work and just
say you know I’m feeling this way do you
and nine times out of ten other people
feeling exactly the same way but if you
if you haven’t got that somebody that
you’ve made a connection with
um to to talk over those things you know
you start having those negative thoughts
and what happens if you don’t tackle
those negative inner thoughts
the the problem that uh inner thoughts
is they’re they’re way more powerful
than anyone can tell you anything
externally and they impact you a lot
more uh because that’s the voice in your
brain it’s essentially your voice and it
keeps getting Amplified the more you
leave it and the more you let it be and
that’s that’s a problem then that can
for most women I have seen
it can result in a downward spiral of
low confidence uh you know low
self-esteem they don’t believe in their
own skills they don’t believe they can
go for the the promotions they don’t
apply for jobs uh that maybe pay them
higher they don’t negotiate for salaries
it has all kinds of impact and it is all
because not someone else is telling them
they’re not capable because that will
happen but you need your own
self-confidence to deal with that you
know but I think our our biggest enemy
is the voice in our head and if we don’t
deal with that early enough and quickly
enough it can result in a long-term
damage which which actually will end up
in the woman you know dealing with or
not pursuing a career they want or not
progressing the way they would like to
in spite of being capable and that’s a
sad thing you know we will essentially
not just losing out good talent in the
industry but it’s very unfulfilling uh
for the person who’s career is is not
taken off the way because they haven’t
approached opportunities
yeah and we I agree we’re very hard on
ourselves and I I remember reading once
um somebody saying you know why don’t
you talk to yourself like one of your
friends would talk to you or one of your
girlfriends would talk to you because we
never do and I always feel like that
that inner voice never sounds like
something I would say to a friend and
when you’re offering them support so
yeah we are incredibly hard on ourselves
um and if we don’t share that with
people or try to get over those negative
thoughts you’re right you just won’t
have the confidence to to try jobs or or
once even if you’re in the tech industry
you won’t stay here either which is
obviously a problem
um for a lot of tech employers
um retaining women
um as well and how do you know if you’ve
got imposter syndrome
so if you constantly find yourself in
situations where you’re getting
appreciated or you’re getting promoted
or you’re getting recognized but you are
playing it down
uh then you’ve definitely got imposter
syndrome I’ve seen this where uh you say
congratulations on an achievement and I
know I’m massively generalizing here but
say to to your male colleagues probably
eight out of nine of them would say a
very confident thank you and maybe even
tell you how you got there you know how
he got there you say the same
congratulations to a woman who’s
achieved and and she’s going to go oh no
it’s nothing oh I got lucky oh it was
teamwork
yeah you know there’s so much of that
and I I feel with like we we also have
to learn how to gracefully own the
credit we deserve because it does a lot
for that inner voice and and that inner
confidence but also we just have to
sometimes understand that
Stars don’t align all the time there are
no coincidence constantly you know you
don’t constantly do well because your
team supported you without you having a
key role to play uh so giving ourselves
the right credit and taking ownership in
our head of I had a significant part to
play and I absolutely owned the
achievement is is a key thing but you
know
that you’ve got imposter syndrome if you
constantly find yourself playing down
your own achievements and you find
yourself thinking this was luck you know
I was I was in a good position there was
no one else who was better I even heard
this from from my team right that that
oh I got this job because there was no
competition like there was no one else I
said no that’s that’s not true you know
he got this job because you deserved it
because you interviewed for it and
others didn’t do as well as you and and
there’s no harm in accepting it
um so yes I I believe
every woman should do a do a sense check
at that point if they’re at a point
where they find themselves saying this
is luck this is teamwork this was
opportunity which fell on me no just
stop yourself there you’ve done
something which has led to this and just
take ownership of that
yeah it’s interesting you mentioned
credit do you think as well that’s
something that we’re just used to people
stealing our credit and taking credit
for work that we’ve done and then
perhaps when you do get that promotion
you just kind of go oh you know was the
team week it was a joint effort because
you’re just so used to somebody else
stepping in and saying actually it was
them that that got you to that
particular particular place 100 I think
we’re very generous with our credit and
we give it away
and we give it away very easily and I
don’t know why we do that because I
don’t see a lot of my meal colleagues
doing that uh however with with women I
I see this there’s a constant pattern of
um you know saying uh no it was it
wasn’t just me or even if someone else
steals their credit they don’t go and
fight for it and that’s the other thing
not every woman necessarily gives it
away but not every woman necessarily
fights for the right credit either and
and that’s also a problem because even
if you’re not giving it away but you’re
not protesting against someone else
taking your credit that is compounding
the problem that is the compounding the
problem for other women as well uh so
yes absolutely I believe uh we’re not
very good with credit taking and we have
to actively train our minds
um to again it comes down to self-belief
and self-confidence that we we did
something that got to this point and we
deserve the credit for it yes yeah and
actually that you just talking about um
self-confidence there it leads me on to
to my next question I wanted to ask you
about social media and where whether
that encourages
um is encouraging imposter syndrome
because social media I mean it’s sort of
black and white isn’t it it can be very
positive but it can be very negative so
you know how how is that encouraging
imposter syndrome
so social media
um is
is an interesting phenomenon I I grew up
without social media and
um I I got introduced to social media in
my teens or you know so for me what I
find is I’m happier when I’m off social
media
yeah
and the reason I’m happy is because uh
social media gives you a very positive
picture of most people who choose to
post on it but what it doesn’t tell you
the struggles that you know underpinned
those successes and then you you look at
these constant successes and you and you
can’t help but feeling like some people
just have it you know they’re just
naturally talented or gifted and there’s
a miracle that is happening which is you
know leading to all these successes but
what you don’t really see is the full
picture of how much they have struggled
or how much they’ve had to sacrifice to
to get that little moment of uh you know
Triumph that they’ve now posted on
social media so it’s a great thing to
share successes but I also say it it’s
great to sometimes have very mundane
posts about struggles and sacrifices on
social media because then it gives some
sort of semblance of balance to people
and uh but we don’t do that and we don’t
do that enough because it’s uh I think
as a society we thrive on successes
whereas we’re very scared to share
failures and and be vulnerable and
that’s that’s the problem with social
media I find that it’s it’s very hard to
be vulnerable
yeah I think as well that um not only
depends on the the um company that
you’re in
um but just also where you’re based as
well and I don’t know if that’s
something you you’ve experienced
yourself but when I work for an American
company I found that I was allowed to
fail and that it was okay and that I
could try something if it went wrong I
remember my boss said don’t cost us any
money
um but you know it’s okay to try
projects and just see how they go and I
I find in the UK we tend to talk
ourselves out of a lot of things because
you’re absolutely right it’s the fear of
failure that we you know we just can’t
talk about
um so it does depend on which company
you’re in
um and obviously the the support that
you that you receive yeah it’s a culture
of the company that defines a lot of
this but also I think social media and
in general it’s a culture of well uh
wherein where on Earth you are you know
because different countries have
different social norms and cultures and
you would see some cultures were very
extroverted were constantly on social
media uh you know and and they’re
they’re okay with sharing failures and
successes uh whereas there there are
some cultures and especially I found
European cultures uh the we tend to be
very reserved uh even with successes we
kind of you know uh tone it down we we
don’t go uh overboard with success and
and celebrating success as either so I
think it’s very cultural and the social
media that you have obviously you’re
experiencing the culture of of the
contacts or the network you have uh so
it’s a very difficult thing to come out
yeah yeah and it’s interesting with
social media as well because we talked
about
um obviously you see those successes on
on social media in the women in tech
industry obviously we scream a lot about
the ladies that work in Tech and we want
to push them forward and highlight the
wonderful things that they’re doing but
obviously what you just mentioned it can
have the opposite effect you know and
and the lack of women in Tech is kind of
contributing to those feelings of
imposter syndrome so we kind of scream
about the ones that are here but then
that sort of makes you feel like perhaps
I’m not succeeding you know as fast as
these wonderful ladies are is that
something you see yourself I think one
positive of the social media is it gives
a platform to to showcase the stories
like you said which what do we showcase
because sometimes especially for
underrepresented groups if you’re if
you’re not seeing someone like you
succeed if you’re not seeing someone
relatable succeed it’s very difficult to
imagine yourself on that part I also
find social media like platforms like
professional platforms like LinkedIn for
example it gives you an opportunity to
go connect with people that you admire
or you know maybe have a chat to get
inspired and and get mentored so I I do
believe there are pros of social media
but from an imposter syndrome
perspective you’re right you know the
role models that you’re seeing succeed
you can either take it as
this is fantastic I can do this or you
could go oh my God I could never do this
because I don’t know how she got where
she got to and and that’s I think those
are the kind of stories of struggle that
we need to highlight more so along with
the successes there’s lots of struggle
you know there were lots of places I’m
sure those successful women have been
snubbed you know haven’t been given the
opportunity they were talked over they
were bullied and I personally have gone
through all of those in my career but
I’m not writing about that uh you know
I’m only saying okay this is my next
Milestone and I’ve got here but it’s
it’s great to share the the struggles
that went behind those milestones
yeah and and you’re correcting you know
kind of separate yourself from it as
well and that that lady did well
um because that’s her story and her
journey that’s not necessarily yours and
it’s it’s not meant to be your path I
remember um attending a lot of women in
Tech Awards
um when uh back in the day and I
remember always having that feeling at
my table that we would go for lunch that
afternoon and um everybody at the table
would always feel as if it’s an
afternoon just to reflect on the fact
that you’ve wasted your life so far
because you hear about these wonderful
women standing up and receiving an award
who work for NASA and you know do all
these wonderful things and you just sort
of come out feeling a bit like you know
so something I I’m supposed to have been
doing and it wasn’t just myself it was
you know a lot of us at the table but it
was a brilliant afternoon for the ladies
that were succeeding and receiving their
trophies but it did have the opposite
effect on the rest of us having lunch
you bring a very important point that
everyone has their own Journey you know
whether it’s a woman or man or whoever
you know every for to everyone’s success
means something different uh and the
important thing is again it comes down
to self-confidence as you define what
success means for you you define what
what makes you happy because it’s not
there’s no single path to success
everybody has gone through different
circumstances in life they have had
different different kinds of obstacles
in life and it’s not the same someone I
was talking to someone the other day I
met him a coffee and we met after a long
time and she basically asked me
you do a lot of public speaking can you
tell me how I can get these
opportunities so that I can be
successful and I was like but that’s not
the one factor to be successful you know
I got to public speaking because I was
given the opportunities because I did a
few other things before that when I was
not public speaking you know so that the
journey he looks very different to why I
came into this versus why if you want to
go into this why you will go into this
unless you know why and unless you know
what your journey is going to look like
and where you want to go there’s no
point following someone else’s Journey
yes and as well you you had to go down
your empath to be able to talk about
something when you did get to that point
of public speaking because I remember
feeling like I’d been pushed into public
speaking too early when I was quite you
know young in my career and I would look
at these wonderful ladies in Tech who
were a CIO of a company and and they
were doing public speaking and I I
remember almost being pushed into the
spotlight and saying share your story
and I thought I haven’t I haven’t got a
story yet you know you have to work your
way down your path a little bit before
you can share that with other people
yeah yeah and it may not be for you
either right there are some people who
absolutely do not think that success and
that that is fine success may be that
they have a balanced life success may be
that I am able to get to my children 5
30 every day and and that is fine as
well but the thing is it’s all about
confidence you know of owning what you
want and knowing that I am happy because
I have chosen this path I think the
worst thing is when you feel like this
is not my path but I’m walking it
because of external pressures or someone
else told me to do something
um so there’s so many moms out there who
want to get back to work and then unable
to because of circumstances whereas
there are mums who are working who are
like actually I don’t care about working
I would rather be home and that’s fine
those are two different parts as long as
it’s bad decision and they’re happy to
own it it’s perfectly okay
yeah yeah it’s their choice and in terms
of those obviously that that want to
um make that choice and for instance
come back to work
um if if you’re a working mum do you
think companies play a role in tackling
imposter syndrome should they step in
and and identify that you perhaps
somebody’s struggling
um and and help them in some way
I mean it’s very hard for especially big
organizations
to do something actively about imposter
syndrome I think every employee goes
through it regardless of gender maybe
one gender goes to it more uh than the
other however I do feel there could be
policies and trainings and and managers
particularly play a very important part
of it so if you are a people manager I
believe it is your responsibility to
take care of your team because that is
the number one job for people’s manager
and if you’re taking care of your team
you should be able to recognize the
different personalities in the team and
encourage them to come out more you know
focus on their own development and their
self-confidence and if every single
people manager did it in a company then
yes the company is tackling imposter
syndrome but the way the company can
make it a cultural aspect of an
organization is by maybe training the
leadership uh to recognize
what does this imposter Syndrome look
like what can you do as a leader uh have
policies which make it easy for people
to be vulnerable and to ask for help uh
you know have mentoring programs so that
maybe you’re not comfortable talking to
your leader but you’re comfortable to
talk to some other mentor and and they
can help you so I think those kind of
this is cultural and this has to be
coming from within the company but the
people have to lean in to make this
culture work
um so an organization can create the
environment for the culture and then you
know empower the people and the leaders
to drive this culture forward that’s the
only way we can tackle imposters in Rome
um at a mass scale on an organization
it’s it’s so interesting though to hear
you say about finding you know the right
person to talk to because you’re
absolutely right would you want to tell
the leader of the company or your
manager that actually you’re feeling a
bit like a food it’s only you know you
don’t want them to have the thought of
well actually should I look into whether
or not she can actually do this job you
probably wouldn’t confide in your leader
in that way so absolutely right having
that outlet that is somebody that you
can confide in and just talk to and just
hear that it’s not just you that’s
feeling that way
um without obviously feeling like you’ve
you know endangered your own role
um yeah giving them safe environment
really to to discuss and even get help
because uh you know a lot of young women
feel like that but when they talk to
maybe someone more experienced and just
hearing that person say I’ve been
through the same Journey when I was
younger and this is how I cope with it
it may not be exactly how you cope with
it but it will give you ideas more
importantly it will give you hope and it
will and it will make you conscious that
this is an imposter syndrome it’s not
the true feeling you know I can actually
deal with this and I can do some
self-stalk and and help myself or I can
create a support system around me that
can help me
yeah yeah and we are running out of time
and I have one last question for you um
do you have any advice for our listeners
to help them overcome feeling like a
fraud
yes so one thing is um
every time you hear your inner voice
telling you you know you’re not good
enough or you didn’t deserve it stop
there and and just maybe take note think
of something positive uh think of an
achievement and then think of what you
did to God and to get there you know and
and that should make that voice go go
down a little bit the other thing is
build a support network so sometimes it
is really difficult to come out of that
imposter syndrome on your own but build
your personal boardroom have friends and
family and people you trust and people
with credibility who will be honest with
you and have them tell you your
achievements because that helps you know
sometimes just that validation from
someone else helps and those are the two
things uh seek out mentors if if you’re
really feeling that you don’t belong
somewhere seek out mentors who can help
you with their experiences and be
vulnerable you know nobody should have
to deal with these thoughts on their own
because is sometimes when you lose a
sight of reality so speak and be
vulnerable I think that’s that’s the key
thing yeah do you think it’s much harder
for younger people nowadays to and find
that Network that they need you know we
used to do that physically at events and
it was much easier to to turn up and
have a drink with somebody and and have
a chat and exchange a business card but
if you’re starting work nowadays that’s
that’s quite difficult to build a
network and to hear other people feeling
exactly the same way that you are yeah
it’s uh I feel it’s definitely more
difficult to build a meaningful
connections virtually but that just
maybe because of the generation now you
you know I come from maybe I’m just not
you know a social media Generation
Um but it is it is more difficult
meeting the person once uh you know face
to face just I think creates a
difference then you can go back to being
virtual but it is definitely that body
language you know the the perception of
warmth uh and empathy from person in
front makes all the difference with
relationships
yeah yeah
as you can see I can talk about this all
afternoon Emily but unfortunately we
have run out of time and so thank you so
much for joining us today
um and for sharing um your insights on
imposter syndrome thank you very much
thank you and um for everybody listening
as always thank you for joining us and
we hope to see you again next time
