Leadership starts at the grassroots. There is still a high demand for new talent in the tech industry, but there is also a demand for more people in their early careers to consider future leadership roles. Especially women in tech.
But not everyone is born a ‘leader’. Most of us need some guidance; someone to grow our confidence, and self-belief and help with a clear strategy for achieving our leadership goals.
Adyen’s Incubator Programme is part of its ‘Future Leader’ track and helps future leaders transition into their first leadership role. So what is Adyen’s Incubator Programme? And why is it so valuable to those who take it?
In this episode, we speak to some of Adyen’s incredible women in tech – Hiukwan Tam, SVP of Engineering, Global Payments; Mayke Ploeger, Technical Program Manager, Platform Engineering; and Divja Nagaraj, C++ Developer – about the Incubator Programme and the importance of encouraging future leaders to step into their first leadership roles.
hello everyone thank you for listening in as always I’m Kelly bechtman the content director actually can code and
today I’m lucky enough to be joined by three guests from ajin to discuss the importance of encouraging Future Leaders
to step into their first leadership roles adjun’s incubator program is part of the future leader track and helps
Future Leaders transition into their first leadership role so what is the incubator program and why is it so
valuable to those who take it now joining me today I have q Quan Michael and divider all fabulous ladies from
adienne to discuss the program with me welcome ladies thank you so much for joining me thank you for having us we’re
going to kick off with some intros um to uh to start things off today Michael let’s start with you
yeah sure yeah so I’m Mike Cooper is my last name it’s also hard to pronounce
but uh I’ve been with ajin for about six years it’s really my first job also and
right now I’m a senior technical program manager but I started off as an engineer here and throughout the year she became
a tech lead engineering manager and now eventually ending up in my latest
technical program fabulous fabulous uh yeah uh I joined uh Arden about a year
and a half ago and um transitioned from being a developer to a team lead pretty
recently and uh it’s been going right for me wonderful wonderful and uh coupon
yourself hi um thank you for having us my name is Yukon I’m part of audience uh
engineering team and I’m I’m responsible for the payments team working on
in-person payments and online payments almost others and we’re so excited to be
part of again because I really like it where growing and working with really
passionate people who want to learn who like to drive results and do that with a
lot of creative ideas yeah fabulous and we’ve got so much to talk about today
um because um you run this fabulous incubator program um which I know is so important to use
and also is such an important um topic for for Our Ladies as well a lot of our ladies are first and second jobbers and
I’m sure this conversation will be invaluable for them uh to hear more about your program Micah and coupon
we’re gonna start off with can you tell me what is the incubator program
um and can you just tell me a bit about it and how it started uh yeah so the incubator program it’s really there to
um give people the idea what it is to be a teammate um because a lot of people may want to
become a team lead it’s it’s maybe a natural progression in your career but if you’ve never been a teammates you’re
really cannot imagine what it actually means to be that what kind of responsibilities
you get and what it means how you will feel while having these responsibilities
so the incubator program is ready to give a bit of insight into what it means
to to get this role and also to understand if this is truly something that you want yeah so we saw uh
um when we’re talking to a a lot of us our Engineers they they saw that we were
growing in Adian and that there were so many opportunities in Aryan to do and they wanted to help to grow and people
were quite excited and they wanted to help out that we have staff roles we
have people management roles and we have engineering roles and we noticed that people were curious
about the team lead role but we also noticed that some people were very comfortable in the current role doing
really well and they weren’t sure that if they would pick up a new role if they could also excel in that role and
therefore uh yeah we created this training where we showed them a bit more
about the the day-to-day uh also about what we expect from a team
leader how do you what do we expect from team leads when uh in the good days but also sometimes it’s hard to be a
teammate on the rainy days so what do we expect from those so that people can make their own decision uh
for their careers yes and is it true um that you did you create the program is
that is that correct yeah correct I created the program because we knew we were we’re growing
and we needed a lot of future templates and I I thought about when I became a
teammate and it was such a natural progression for me
but I have declined that role multiple times because I was afraid I didn’t know
if I could be good in a new role and once I I took the opportunity I
realized it was so so much nicer than I would imagine it gave me a lot of
opportunity to learn new skills explore new ideas okay I started to follow a lot of trainings articles uh books and
yeah I wish I have known earlier how interesting it was so I could have
made this decision earlier yeah that’s the fact that you share as well that
um you show the good days and the bad days because that that’s what Future Leaders want to know don’t they if you
get into a job and actually I didn’t know it was going to be like this um you could really be turned off and
you you could uh head for the hills quite quite fast but if you’re already if you know Adrian has showed you what
it’s going to be like you can prepare for those hard days as well as as you said yeah exactly we try to prepare people to
let them know that hey once you get the team lead uh when you become a team lead it’s just a starting point you’re not
there yet you still need to learn new skills so you can excel in this role
and it’s really being a team leader is really quite an easy one when it’s easy yeah that’s fine it’s hard that’s
actually the moments where you think what am I doing here yes I suppose as
well on paper isn’t you see well even seeing other team leaders sometimes you think you
you might think in your head I know what my leadership style would be like but actually you don’t until you start you
know managing real people and and experiencing what’s what that is like and suddenly it’s quite a baptism of
fire when you realize that people that you you know manage them and they have opinions and uh you know they’re real
people that talk back um so yeah having any sort of training up front you know to try and prepare you
for for being a good leader obviously is um invaluable um I want to talk a little bit about uh
the program obviously we spoke a little bit about um it’s important um but um Michael what was like before
the incubator program yeah it’s it’s a it’s a nice question because before there was any incubator
program there was really nothing just just really nothing when I became a team lead
um there was this announcement to uh to the team which were actually my former bears and like my kids now team lead and
that was that and I got one training which was about HR and how were you good
to approve holidays well I didn’t need to care about that at all that was the least of my problems I could always ask
that to anyone really but what was so difficult is I always knew I wanted to
to building it actually I loved strategy I love thinking about about people but
once you actually are in that position um I felt I needed to have the answer to
everything immediately like anyone would come up with a question to me and I would be like oh shh I need to answer
this now and and that brought so much stress so much stress uh to that first yeah first
a couple of months as indeed
um that it would just have really really helped if someone had said to me hey it’s okay it’s something new you need to
learn you’re gonna get across all these situations that you’ve never gone across before and yeah you might just not know
and here are some other people that you can talk to and raise questions from but I I really have this feeling that I
needed to to get it right instantly I am a team lead now I am responsible it’s so funny that you say that because
I have exactly the same whatever came in team leader I thought I had to give everybody all the answers and I realized
it’s actually not what people want they want you to listen to them and ask questions and so show empathy now you
don’t really have to solve everything yes I suppose as well and we talk about it a lot here with the ladies um that we
interview uh but imposter syndrome can can creep in quite easily in those situations as well because you you
overthink it and like yourselves you know you’re thinking everybody wants me to have the answers to everything and I’m going to start doubting myself at
this point um and you know just really not not listening to people um so I think sometimes it’s just
hearing that other people feel exactly the same way that you feel isn’t it and just just being able to have that
Network where you know you say actually I felt exactly the same way um it’s not it’s not unusual the way the
way that you’re feeling um I want to go to you can you tell us a little bit about your experience with
the program and because you went through it so you know what what did you learn um along the way uh and how has it
supported your career so far yeah uh for me I think the incubator
program was absolutely fantastic I really really loved it uh the the
content for the program was was really well designed and uh because the the
sessions were very interactive the discussions and then we had a two-day workshop where I learned a lot of things
the list is pretty huge but if I have to pick like a like a top two then I would pick uh uh praise and feedback how to
give them in a in a rather structured format because when you’re doing this as a first time team lead it’s it might be
a bit difficult if you’re not well prepared because you might not do well
right so I think this uh structured way of doing it uh help me I’ve also tried
this out uh in in my uh recent days and it worked out perfectly well so there
you have it they’re well executed and then the second would be um looking at things from a different
perspective right sometimes things might be too good or things might be too bad
but um you always want this confirmation of am I looking at reality this the same
eyes that my peers are also looking at it so having this discussion with peers and then
um okay uh yeah we are looking at the same reality that gives you the confidence and also helps you make
really good decisions and I think that’s something that I really picked up and I really liked um there are a few other Concepts that I
that I really really liked um things like the types of leadership skills or leadership branding or the um
the disc behavioral style that was also very nice I really enjoyed that
um so what all of these Concepts did is basically change the mindset of thinking
that you know as a developer you don’t take any of this into consideration as a new team lead uh you kind of need to
step into this shoes and then tune your mindset to think in these angles and I
think this uh program kind of helped me do that so that’s why I say I I really
love this program yeah I love the fact that you just said they’re types of leadership when before
you went in did you have a certain type in your mind that maybe you know you’d experience from other managers and you
thought that’s what I have to be and perhaps to realize it’s okay to be yourself
um or to that there are different types of leadership yeah uh I I’ve seen uh Leaders with with vision basically
visioners and then I I didn’t know if I would be someone like that but then I
also realized that I’m more of a mentoring coaching kind of I have that personality and then when I found out
that that is also a style of leadership I was like okay I can be myself as well
being the leader so yeah that was definitely something that I picked up yes I’ve heard so many times from ladies
who um when I started to to step up and go into leadership roles they said that
they found themselves becoming quite um masculine in the way that they approached it because that’s what they’d
seen from other leaders exactly yeah suddenly they got in and they thought you know what actually I need to be myself and that’s the value in being
your feminine self and just being finding your own style which I’m you know I’m assuming something like this program just allows you to find your own
style exactly it just it just gives you the opportunity to explore the different types so that you know that if you you
might resonate with a couple of those sub Styles maybe not everything but then you know that these things
at a certain percentage will definitely help you right you don’t need to be a hundred percent in everything so I think
that’s something that would definitely help if you understand it better yes yes
um based on that then would you recommend to the program to others well I would
definitely recommend the program to others you know because um uh it will give you that confidence
of uh well as a as a first-time uh Team lead you always have this uh do will I
do do things right or will I uh will I succeed do you have so much questions in your head that okay I’m moving out of my
comfort zone will I succeed will I will I fail um so questions like these can be
tackled with the help of this incubator program so if if you are if you really
want to get into the rule of leadership then this program you have to I I would
say you have to attend it yeah I I suppose I’m a little bit curious as well about
um the the types of people that were on the program or they are all sort of different stages of careers I mean
because we talk to a lot of ladies that have taken career Transitions and they might be you know they’ve been in their
career 15 years and they’ve decided to move into tech and and they don’t want to be seen as Junior obviously they’re
very experienced at that point and but it’s almost like they’re in an early Tech Career did you find that there are
just you know lots of different levels that are there that are sort of looking to move up or is it you know I don’t
know are they sort of younger people or is it quite mixed um we have different tracks basically so
the track that I was on was mostly for new team leads like from different domains right like maybe from product or
sales or marketing or people people were stepping into this new Team league roles
so I would say they definitely have a lot of experience in their bags but uh
this leadership is something that they wanted to try something new so we were in this uh initial Fast Track uh where
uh people who are very new to leadership were being trained so I think we also
have different different tracks right yeah yeah and there were it was a diverse group of people because we know
we’re growing and yeah we know we need leadership we know we have tons of people that want it but a lot of them
may not know if this is really what I want if this is what they want today maybe something I wanted to in two years
so we set up this program and allowed everybody hadn’t had an interest to join
but also evaluate after the program if they want to continue on this track now
later or decide not to continue yeah and do you so do you invite people
to to join or do you also approach people that you think are going to be good leaders and say you know
we we hear it often ladies say hide the light under a bushel they might not put themselves forward do they approach and
say you know what I really think you should you should go for this yeah definitely but I think it’s a lot
of people that we thought you had the skills yeah to do it yeah we do yeah so
it’s it’s it’s kind of um those that want to put themselves forward uh can but it’s um nice to hear
that also you just identify really good talent um and and can kind of see where they’re going
um this is for all of you really um what would you say to our listeners who are considering something similar at their
own companies you know how how would they get started I would say you know if there’s not such
a program then you still need to make sure you understand what it actually is so talk to other leaders and try to find
out what challenges they they bring to day to day right uh challenge yourself
or why you want this but also yeah check if this is something for you
um but don’t be afraid that it wouldn’t be something for you just talk to people yeah and this you can just start it
doesn’t have to be super complex so we started with with two people that we sat
down and thought about how to design this program we came up with two training sessions or three uh and uh and
three uh lunches we decided on the topics and uh we just went for it yeah I was
mentoring in some of the sessions others were training and as we went on the
second iteration was already much better and the third one was also much better I
think we iterated on it yeah yeah we just knew that we had to do something
and then we just uh the window we just did it yeah yeah so it’s just not overthinking it is it
you know just just start and as you said it’s kind of progressed into something else um division you you mentioned that
you ended up you know in a two-day workshop I’m assuming you didn’t start as a two-day workshop I don’t think so
maybe the previous it it was more more obsessions and then uh I think I was in
the second or third iteration so I was lucky enough to get the two-day workshop yeah and it was so simple because in the
beginning we did sessions indeed but we also did lunches I think we still do lunches we deal with lunches yeah but
what I like about those lunches so we organized lunches with team leads that are already enroll and
people from the incubator program and we touch topics about hey how do I manage
my time when I become a team leader how much time do you still spend coding and and doing teammate stuff because we
didn’t want people to continue coding in the evening in the weekend just because they picked up the new role and by
connecting the incubator uh talents with the the current team leads who already has experienced this we could
really easily uh talk about this topic and train people at the same time
yes yes can you take it more than once or is it kind of you go through and that’s it because it sounds like as it’s
evolving I’d want to go back and do it again wouldn’t you do the job think oh something else in there I can learn now
if there’s something new I’d love to but then uh not go back to this because it’s
also time consuming right and so uh indeed I also would think about will I
invest that much time again redoing the two-day workshop which is the same content maybe not but if it is something
new that has been introduced um yeah why not in general we have a lot
of trainings now also for existing team leads so this is really to incubator program but if you’re one year in the
job again you get a training and it’s a bit more advanced if you’re a couple more years in a job again there’s a more
advanced training it’s really with this this intimate group and you share your experiences um yeah training needs to continue right
throughout the day you’ll also with peer-to-peer coaching and mentorship what we’ve learned from this program so
we have we taught people this is a program we show you what it means to be
a team lead and it’s up to you to decide if you want to be a team lead now tomorrow or later and we found out that
some of the people realize I said this is not for them yeah they wanted to go
into the staff track the technical trick so we’re now
piloting a new training program for people who have technical Ambitions but no
people management ambitions and what a great safe place to realize
perhaps something isn’t for you um instead of moving into that role and then thinking you know I’m gonna have to
stay here for at least a year or this is going to look Dreadful on my CV but um just just to try something new which I
think I don’t know about use but technology as a whole is quite good for that it’s quite flexible for for trying
new things um if you’re weaving the right company obviously and you have a safe environment where you are allowed to
fail um and try new things uh then I think Tech is a great industry for that
but it’s not just about failing because it’s really useful for us as a company also to find out early on before someone
actually went into that role that that’s not for them that they won’t like it because if you put someone in that
position without verifying that and then they’re a year unhappy and probably their team is unhappy because they have
a manager that doesn’t like it that’s the problem for the entire company right yes figuring this out it really helps us
yeah yes absolutely yeah I haven’t even thought about it the other way around
yes just making sure that everybody um is is prepared and it benefits everybody
um uh coupon and Micah what are the key learnings from the program would you say
so many warnings uh
uh what I’ve learned is that a lot of topics that we covered in the training
were very useful for people that uh that wanted to be a team lead but I realized
that a lot of the skills that we were teaching about giving feedback for example that’s very useful for anyone yeah yes
yeah and uh I’ve also learned that hassle
I talked to a few people and I explained to them that sometimes even though I’m I’m responsible for so many teams
globally in Adrian especially sometimes I also don’t know what to do and I also need to learn and talk to other people
and people were surprised about that because they thought that when you when’s your teammate you have it all
together yes yeah I’ve heard that so often and I
think as well um you’re absolutely right he was touched upon a little bit earlier um about you know just making sure
um that that leader as well is a good leader so the team is Happy um because I think there’s an expression
that people um they don’t leave jobs they leave managers because it is it is so important and and um as you just
mentioned there giving feedback and knowing how to do it and doing it properly and making sure that you know
not that you’re delicate with somebody but just that you you don’t tear that person down when you do it and that you
still get the the most out of them um uh to to have some training on that uh would would be
um so useful um but actually so there must be so so many
um uh benefits that have come out of this program um as you as you were mentioning there
are there any others that you can think of uh yeah that’s well the one we mentioned
before right that people realize early on whether it is something for them or not and that’s important but so it was
also nice to create this peer group connected the the current teammates with
the future team leads and I found that sometimes it was really interesting because we were bringing
people together that work in their day-to-day in many different parts of the organization
so we also learned much more about other parts of organizations and we talked about the agile strategy
um the future so it sometimes we went off topic on plans but gains more
information beyond your own team scope and do they
stay in touch afterwards as well that peer Network do they can they still connect afterwards in some kind of way
in some kind of like alumni sort of sort of thing with imagine over there
well um uh I do now know a lot of team team leads so if I have questions I would go
to them well and then ask are you also facing this but then we don’t have like a a formal group or set up wherein we we
kind of discuss things but we know each other so we always think that directly or just call them and then have a have a
coffee with them and then chat things over so at least that’s how it is right now yeah that’s that’s always wonderful
to hear isn’t it within a company that um they they help you to create those uh
networks that if you if you do want to go to somebody and ask something and then then uh that support is there
within your own company um because I think moment about networks we we tend to think externally don’t we
we tend to think um reaching out to people uh that might not work at your company but to have something in-house
obviously um it’s far more useful um ladies we we are running out of time
but I wanted to ask you a little bit about working in Tech as a whole um and then you know obviously moving
into leadership roles what advice would you give yourself starting out so
anything that you wish somebody would have told you when you moved in into um the tech industry and started to move
into a leadership role um yeah so I I wouldn’t really make it
very specific to Tech but just any any job you start because whenever you start your very first job
this is the very first time that you’re surrounded by peers that actually have experienced what you don’t
enjoy your entire School career you’re always kind of at the same level as people right you you start learning the
same you get the same tests Etc but the way you start a job you need to
get used to this fact that you are not supposed to be on the same level as all
these other people that may have had 10 years of experience so you you don’t need to be worth yourself accountable to
that same level it’s okay that you have to learn and I think this this holds for the first job it holds for a new rule it’s
always it’s okay to that you have to learn and I think also when I turned into the
teammates role I wasn’t that forgiving with myself I felt I had to know right I I I’m a team lead now so I need to do as
well as that other team lead who’s been here for 10 years and because I am too a team leads but yeah it’s it’s that
experience with which you need to learn so yeah it’s okay yeah I think especially as ladies we try
and be perfectionists as well and you’re right you kind of get into a role and you beat yourself up that you’re you’re
not everything um that you think people need you to be especially if you’ve had a manager that
you you looked to and and you and as we said throughout this you haven’t found your own leadership style yet it takes a
while to really settle into who you are as a leader um and you’re absolutely right it’s not
beating yourself up along the way and that you have to learn um that that experience as you go
um yeah I definitely agree with what Micah said that there’s always this
feeling of you need to know everything but then um that’s definitely I would
definitely give myself that advice but apart from that I will also tell myself that um training your I mean looking at
the um Team lead tasks is also equally important uh you that you invest time in
in doing those tasks just like how you invest time in growing as a developer
right so you do a lot of technical tasks so also give equal importance to the
tasks that will Groove you to be a team lead instead of you know uh thinking
that that’s low priority and then you because you come from an individual contributor mindset and then this change
or this shift is very much important and uh I think all team leads should never
think that people management or or things are any less important than a
technical task I think that’s something that I would give myself sometimes yeah
you may forget it yeah I think sometimes you’re absolutely
writing some sometimes um people think that I have the technical skills that they need and everything is going to be fine and then
actually you know you move into a different role and you just think oh my word I was not prepared for this or as
some of you have said you know you actually you go through the incubator program and you might think actually that’s not for me and I’d rather stay on
the technical side of the fence and do my own thing so um yeah it’s just uh being able to
experience it um without obviously losing a job um
yourself yeah um there are a couple of practical things that I learned uh
um for example here I used to check when I would apply for a job I used to I used to check on all the other boxes from the
vacancy text and only apply for a job when I think I can meet all of them and
I came to realize when I became a team lead now I’m writing those vacancy texts I usually do that in 20 minutes I don’t
cover all the guidelines so I I write down a general idea of what I think is
required for the role and I cannot write a vacancy tax with a hundred lines so I
need to shorten it but sometimes I do put something on it and and not so having that now in mind
now all right think about if I if people apply for a job they shouldn’t check
all the boxes because the person that drafted that vacancy may have spent a
few minutes drafting it and not listed everything so yeah might not be a perfect match but
if it’s even 50 I would say go ahead go ahead yeah go ahead we constantly hire
people that matches fifty percent they turn out to be really great yeah
very talented people you’re right I I’ve heard so many people on this podcast say the same thing that sometimes men they
will apply for something if you know they don’t hit all of the jobs back and but women they seem to think you know
I’m gonna have to hit at least 95 of those that is so true and you talk
yourself out of the job and you think you know what I’m not going to be good for that job because I can’t do this one
thing um you’re absolutely right hook one it’s it’s it just sometimes it’s just going for something and if you’re lucky enough
to be at a company that offers you training um like Adrian and there’s different tracks that you can go through then you
know you can find your feet as you go you know it’s fine it’s fine yeah and then some more things that I’ve learned
is well now I’m a team lead like some questions keep coming back from from uh
from people around me hey you can when do I get a promotion can you tell me about my salary raise
uh mentorship can you help me with a mentor and you’re gonna how about the promotion and salary rate so I get this
Quest questions common sense but very little from women
yeah and I’ve come to realize wow it’s really not where to ask for a promotion
or a salary raise you should just do it and and I’ve as I’ve asked some people
around me hey why are you asking me for a promotion what’s holding you back and I tell you because I don’t know how to ask
and I say look that is very true just ask I’ve heard people say that as well you know I
mean even from my previous manager I mean it was a little different for me because I used to always ask but then I
also know people in my team that I’ve worked with that are very hesitant to do that especially the women men are like
all out but but especially the women they’re very very hesitant and then I always try to push them that it’s okay
you deserve it look at yourself that if they have much bigger light I mean you’re doing great I
think that self-motivation is a little low in women and I think exactly so now I find myself
going around uh for asking people to ask for a promotion
which is a good thing yeah like it’s a lovely note to end it on and perfect
um uh positive advice to end our conversation on today because it is flown by and we are already out of time
so thank you so much to Micah coupon divija thank you so much for joining us today to talk about uh leadership and
making sure that we encourage those Future Leaders um onto the right path so thank you so
much all for joining us thank you thank you thank you thank you and thank you to everybody listening as always and we
hope to see you next time
