Last year, it was reported that women accounted for 48% of gamers in the United States!
Despite this, the gaming industry is still very much male-dominated and games have been designed with men in mind for a long time.
While the tide may be slowly turning on this, with almost half of all gamers being female, shouldn’t we have more input and representation in the creative process?
In this episode, we sit down with Jacki Vause, Founder & CEO, Dimoso PR, to talk all things women in gaming, how to get into the industry and what she thinks the future of gaming will hold.
Jacki is the Founder and CEO of Dimoso PR, a London based integrated digital marketing and PR agency specialising in mobile games and technology.
Jacki launched Dimoso PR from London over 11 years ago. Now, it has a customer base from around the globe. Dimoso strives to work on the best and guarantees impactful results for all. From mobile games to tech startups, Dimoso has more recently moved into the metaverse with NFTs, blockchain games and Web 3.0.
Jacki is also extremely knowledgeable in all of these topics; she is a regular speaker at gaming and business conferences internationally. Jacki attends regular events, such as the Games Forum in London and Pocket Gamer Connects Helsinki where she moderated panels, as well as speaking at Pocket Gamer Connects Toronto last year in 2022.
hello everyone thank you for tuning in I am Kaylee Bateman the content director at chican code and today we’re
discussing women in gaming last year it was reported that women accounted for 48
of gamers in the United States despite this the gaming industry is still very much male dominated and games have been
designed with men in mind for a long time while the tide may be slowly turning shouldn’t women have more input
and representation in the creative process today I’m joined by the wonderful Jackie boss founder and CEO of
demoso PR to dive into this topic a little deeper welcome Jackie thank you
nice to meet you thank you so much for joining us today and we actually haven’t spoke about this before on online so
we’re excited to have you on and can we start with a little bit of background about yourself please absolutely
um knowing that this is a broader audience than just gaming um it’s good to say that I did actually
start my career in technology and in technology publishing so it was a sort
of weird segue I wanted to be um you know the the sort of Local Hero
in terms of the actor in me and I did drama and theater studies at University
but found when I arrived at University I was in the same class as Mark Strong and
saw that real acting royalty was there and uh decided I would be much better
off behind the scenes so I um specialized in Sound and Lighting and that really sort of sparked my
enthusiasm and interest in Tech I mean in those days you know lighting boards and sound boards were all like dials and
and sweeping switches and all that kind of thing but um and not like they are today which is all automated and
beautifully timed and everything else you really were expected to just operate things like the old um you remember the
old um telephone key the old telephone yes changes with all the leads and the plugs
and stuff like that very like that but it did spark my enthusiasm for technology and when I sort of left
University um as a bright-eyed graduate I thought to myself brilliant I can get into the theater and
do Sound and Lighting and that really didn’t happen because that was the very most male dominated industry you’ve ever
come across um and I was told quite impolitely that because I would be in Commerce and you
can cut this and edit this if you like but on the blob once a month I will be very useful to a gaffer in theater Land
um yeah very much so very against women um it was a kind of it was really
interesting it was a kind of interview you would go to to and you’d have to show your hands and your hands would
have to be black from rigging lanterns where all the metal chips have got into your hands and if you showed your hands
and you didn’t have black hands you’d never even you know get to question answer stage but once they looked at my
hands and established that I was indeed a woman um I I really didn’t get any jobs so I
tried in vain to get a job in sit in the theater in in Lighting and Sound and then sort of reluctantly plotted my way
around to graduate recruitment fair and ended up at a technology Publishers called vnu
um that stood for United Dutch publishing and I worked on titles like micro decision
um what micro and that was when before PCS this was this is really showing my
age so we’re talking about mini and Mainframe and micro computers um and then at the Advent of Windows I
actually left um that publishing company and I ended up working in software selling
um software programs via a computer dealer at the time called Roderick
Manhattan and I spent the next five years running up and down the coasts of America sourcing software programs to
bring over to UK and Europe and sell and distribute over here so my sort of
Foundations in Tech were very um really good and I did and I learned
PR from being at that first company because I wasn’t taught to PR I didn’t go to a
college and learn PR I actually um just phoned up my mates who are on the Publications that I used to work on
and say hello please could you write a review on this software program and
that’s what really got me into PR um and then when I left that company I
wanted to set up a company of my own and I decided that I wanted to concentrate on PR and I wanted to
um concentrate on PR in technology companies and so with my little startup
I was probably the one of the first web 2 agencies to really come to before we
ended up growing that company to be enormous it’s called Flapjack and we had
offices on Gloucester place and we you know had the chandeliers and the Pas and
the private memberships that you know that sort of stuff and then unfortunately lost it all
in the web crash and um they’re after very soon after 9 11
because of all our our assets were tied up in property and property took a massive crash and I had to sell that
company in a fire sale but I’ve seen the evolution of tech go from
um you know very raw software Windows software programs and games through to
you know really sophisticated platforms and e-commerce systems and payment
systems and everything else and I even learned to network my own office partition hard drives build computers so
yeah so I am a bit of a techie at heart yeah yeah well that’s one of the most
interesting routes I think we’ve heard so far uh into the industry um how did you get into gaming though
was that did you see a gap in the market there and you thought that’s that’s something we’re gonna go for as a
company I did it was really interesting so after that after that big crash and
after essentially losing my first company I was headhunted to work for a
really large American PR agency called peppercom to set up their European head office and
that was a you know in hindsight there’s a really lucky break I mean I wanted to see if whether I was actually any good
at PR because I was self-taught and I wanted to see if I could work with this very large company and and and hold my
own and luckily I did because I worked with them for 10 years and I was very lucky in the sense that I worked with
huge companies then you know um reporting into people like Beth Comstock at GE
um working with atnt Avaya Panasonic Siemens like pretty much every large
Tech name that you could come across and that was a real you know that was a real eye-op no big you know big company PR is
very different to small company PR um and still that was all Tech and when
I’m getting to the point of games I used to play Network Doom when I was back at um at my previous company and uh
we didn’t have much chance of doing that with the the the the big
uh American company but um I was a great lover of games and when I sort of
decided to make my move away from that large American company one of the things
I wanted to do is really focus on mobile tech so this brings a sort of Full Circle
back to games because mobile was very uh early then um you know what we take for granted are
smartphones now really were in their first existence um the Nokia was really the first phone
that had the snake game on it and so apps and games weren’t really there yet
when I first started Dr boso um but the smartphones were coming and they were the the actual Hardware that
could house these games was coming and that was my opportunity to get back into
into games um and the first ever apps were really
games I thought we’d be working when I set up demosa which stands for digital mobile social I took a big risk even in
the name because mobile tech wasn’t it wasn’t really anything that was
recognized um so when I said that tomorrow so one of the things I thought we would be
doing would be apps and back-end sort of Engineering Systems and that kind of thing development platforms analytics
platforms that was the sort of thing I thought we’d be doing I was so wrong the first people that came to us were apps
developers and games developers and the interesting thing was that all the big console games companies and all the PC
games companies had seen this opportunity in Mobile and we’re trying
to literally copy and paste their games from console and PC onto mobile
and luckily because we were sort of right at the start of mobile spent a lot of time advising people on a mobile
first mentality before you even got into the design of the game so a lot of games
that would work on a PC and work on a big screen and didn’t need to be taken around with the user were thought of in
a designed in a different way so you spend a lot of time working with codemasters jagex mini clip and a lot of
the sort of bigger Publishers to kind of help them bring their first games to light so we were more than a PR agency
we were Consultants we were go to market agents and we very much kept that DNA
with us as we sort of gone through the games industry so that’s how I got into into games
which and I mean you mentioned there’s so many different things there about you know being consultants and bringing
games to life and it sounds like a very creative industry history where you know
the world is your oyster and and you can try lots of new things what is there to love about a career in gaming keeps you
young yes the only industry that keeps you young you keep I think you keep learning
in everyday life for you every day is a school day it doesn’t matter what you do you’re always learning something whether
it’s about yourself or other people or things um but the thing about technology and
the thing about games um particularly because games are such competitive space and the interesting
thing is games were the first apps so a lot of apps that have come along after
games have actually learned so much about their design their infrastructure
their monetization from the games industry and the games industry is always pioneering very collaborative
industry um and so and I think the the nature of it is collaborative nature really helps
the Innovation that happens um you see even the biggest competitors
uh working together on new tech that’s going to help their games get better so
yeah I think that’s the biggest thing for me is it keeps me young I see so much Innovation at the moment I’m
working in web 3 I’m working with obviously nfts and blockchain I’m working with
Ai and lots of machine learning I mean it’s just it’s phenomenal the sort of
stuff that that you find I’m the coolest mum in my my son’s school because you know
not only am I working with all of these amazing Technologies and games but I’m
also working with influencers and you know and celebrities and people like
that who are trying to to to access the new world of web 3 people like I mean
you probably will speak to Kelly Vero saying she’s a bit of a a goddess of web
through in the metaverse but you know she’s Consulting with people like David Beckerman Nikki butt and all these big
names Paloma Picasso um who are all looking at web 3 nfts The
Meta versus as a new space where they can bring their brands
um and so I’m really lucky I’m at that intersection of entertainment of
Technology um and of learning um so yeah it’s it’s just it’s just the
most amazing industry to be in yeah and it I mean for somebody that’s working in
the in the industry who obviously are fully aware of that but those on the
outside do you think there’s still a stigma around a career in gaming is it is it still one of those careers that is
kind of well that’s not a very sensible route to take I should do something else which is a real shame obviously yeah I
mean I think yeah it was I think that with the games industry it’s parents of
my age who not necessarily teachers and career people I think they’re coming around to to understanding the
importance of this industry but I think parents see it as something fickle something
um in many ways sometimes even bad you know there’s lots of negativity around
children socializing on their games and a lot of negativity about how games sort
of drag a child away from their schoolwork or playing outside or
whatever that can be and so I think games are seen as very what’s the word
um not irrelevant but a nice to have nor not a must-have
um and not a serious career and it couldn’t be further from the truth how
necessary games are in our lives and when we use games to learn we use games
for everything we do we we use games to attract a mate we use games all the time
games are part of humanity and you know just because video games
are um a a very more easily presentable format and more easily consumed
um I think it they’re seen as something that’s um not necessarily A positive force but
I totally believe that they are um more for the force of good than for
the for bad and it’s how you it’s like with anything it’s how you use a gun it’s how you use anything is whether it
goes wrong for you is bad for you in terms of careers oh my God I was speaking to this I’d do a lot of
mentoring and I was speaking to a group of young girls and from University of North Carolina and they’re all studying
PR and journalism and I was trying to explain to them that journalism is really changing now in um in these more
Tech you know in technical times I mean you know the day of the journalists who can offer
commentary and opinion is long gone it’s all news news analysis
um very sort of 24 7 News culture um and people have to learn to write to
that and learn to research quickly and it’s a very very different world and I’m saying to them why didn’t you you know
take these skills and bring them into the games industry use your skills in terms of writing narratives but you know
you have storytelling you have design you have PR marketing you have Finance
there are all these other things that that are in the games industry in any
kind of tech industry but most important you can code you can learn to code
it’s so easy now with the tools even I can code with the tools that we have
that at our disposal I’ve just launched um a ugc metabus coming from unity and
for those who don’t know Unity is the biggest games development platform for developers and programs in the world and
they have uh three of their most senior guys left that company to set up this
ugc metaverse called yahaha and what yahaha has in its heart is what I call
the little black box where which is like a baby Unity development platform where
you could just go in with pretty much no coding experience at all and create worlds create things and create worlds
it’s all coming to us now the tools are becoming the much easier to use and if
you’ve got an imagination if you’ve got creativity you can code you can build you can make any kind of a game it’s
there and particularly for girls who kind of see computers computer science as something for boys and sometimes see
computer games as something for boys um it’s a world that’s
um really shockingly lacking in female bodies but it’s changing it’s changing
and there’s a there’s a huge Um passion and
um and advocacy in our industry in the games industry for women to come through the
games industry yeah I think there’s that stereotype as far as I mean whether you’re male or female to be honest when
thinking about careers in gaming if you can’t draw or you’re not massively
creative then you think to yourself that’s it can’t be in gaming because as you mentioned the video gaming industry
is the one that we think of and that’s the one where we think of you have to know how to draw and be very Arty
um and if I can’t do that I’m not going to attempt to go into the industry but you mentioned so many roles there that
are available in gaming so many worlds there’s for example
um the way a lot of games are monetized it used to be that you had to buy a game you pay 199 in the Apple Store and you
download your game and you play your game now most games are free and the way
they monetize is by Annoying playing ads and stuff like that or through in-app
purchases so you buy yourself a new life or you buy yourself some more oxygen or
boosters or whatever now um the roles in that side of of things are
fascinating because they’re they’re all about analysis of Trends they’re all about they call it live Ops basically
you can see your cohorts your silos of players you can see what they react to you can see what they’re enjoying you
can adapt your game to respond to that you can put purchases in that they might buy it’s just that the analytics the ad
monetization and then you’ve got ad networks who I’m working with globals
um Dax Network their Global radio to help them with audio adverts in games so
that you can continue playing your game listening to an advert while connecting into place you don’t even get in you
don’t even get interrupted and you get all the things that you can get as a reward from that so you know there’s so
many sides to this amazing industry and people are constantly surprised when I
say to them my industry’s worth Northern Hollywood and Netflix and all the streaming stuff put together my industry
is a global multi-billion pound industry or dollar industry
um and it just it doesn’t seem to register no and I suppose spreading more
awareness of the roles that are available um is is one of the the things that needs to be done but what do you think
we can do to encourage more girls into the industry are they are there are some other things to entice them in
do more stuff like this for starters have women talking about what is great
about the industry and advocating the industry and advocating roles another thing that I like to do is I like to
Mentor people have more people going out into education into into college
education even younger potentially and then helping people see what kind of
roles are available within the industry have them visualize it
and the best way of visualizing is to bring people into your organizations and let them Apprentice let them in turn let
them work I mean most of my graduate recruits actually come as a result of internships
um you know and it’s really interesting because a lot of people who think about PR my challenge is a lot of them lots of
people think about PR in that kind of absolutely fabulous oh Fashion PR ooh Beauty tpr
um oh celebrity PR and you know yeah there’s Merit to those kind of roles and
those jobs but they’re very fickle they’re very fake they don’t pay any money and they’re really hard work
um whereas if you get into Tech PR if you get into technology if you get into
gamespr your your ticket your dollar is worth much much more as an individual
and I’d like people to see that and girls particularly to see that they can
that you know they can increase their own personal value as an asset to companies if they get into Tech if they
get into games um because I have literally interviewed
people in fashion PR have been in fashion PR for 10 years and they’re earning less than one of my account
Executives and it’s crazy so you know we have we have career progression we have
genuine um self-improvement and self value being
being worked on so there’s a lot of things that we can do to just keep telling that message
yeah and do you have any advice for those looking to get in and you know is a is there anything that you wish you
had been told this is the problem yeah I’m actually selling people the idea of getting in
so when I speak to graduates they’re like I really fancy fashion feel and you’re like why what why
do you want to travel fancy going to Montreal Toronto San
Francisco Los Angeles that’s where I was last year what happens in Tech
it does all happen in Turkey this is the interesting thing it’s this perception so it’s changing that perception say
Tech is sexy it is actually not full of nerds it is it’s sexy it’s full of a lot
of very intelligent creative people um making a lot of money I mean these
games are making millions and upon billions and you know you don’t see the likes of Microsoft going and spending
billions on Activision if there wasn’t a reason for that yeah so yeah I mean it’s it’s all about
changing the perception of what that industry is all about now if they want to get in
try and get in through work experience interning
um there’s a lot of very open people to Bringing people on that way um I suppose to seeing when you intern
as well you get to see within a company you get to see the roles that are available you know you haven’t committed
yourself to anything um as you mentioned earlier even yourself at Uni when you when you’re an
undergrad it’s kind of a time of you know figuring out what you want to do and what you what career route you want
to take anywhere there aren’t many people at University that know exactly what what they want to do so in turn and
do work experience and and Rule things out you know without the risk of thinking I’ve got to be here for a
minimum of a year that’s my first job that’s so true and I think with it’s
interesting because when I Mentor students in the UK versus students in the US I feel so sorry for the students
in the US because their parents are like on them to choose a vocational degree course so by the time you know they’ve
done three years in their vocation they’re expected to go and do that
um whereas we are think in our in Europe I think we’re much more culturally flexible and yet just get into uni do
your degree doesn’t have to be what you’re going to do but it shows that you growing up it shows your you know
getting use and this is an interesting thing as well I was never really
anti-people who didn’t go to university and I’m still not um my own husband never went to to UNI
he went straight into a job however I do notice a big difference between people who have been to
University and who haven’t um usually just in the soft life skills
I think you get a lot of veggies knocked off for you at University you’ve learned how to adapt and you learn what you have
to you know you learn how to to work with people so um just living with other people it’s
just such a baptism of fire isn’t it uni you’ve got to get on with people and and
form relationships and and things that you probably wouldn’t do when you’re still living at home and then going to
the workplace so you’re absolutely right I um I I definitely thought that a university is invaluable for for
everything else not just the qualification absolutely and it also gets you into a discipline gets you into
meeting deadlines it gets you into a discipline of work and I think that’s really important but yeah I do think
that you know there is so much opportunity there the other thing I would I would always say to people is
look out for events look out for shows you know there are lots of for example in my industry we have big shows like
Gamescom like GDC um like Pocket Gamer connects and we
have smaller shows select shows like games Forum um these shows can be found and they do
offer student tickets um often like for nothing um just to to be you know behind to
encourage students to come into the industry so that’s you know that’s a tip for people who are listening to
to you know to to come into an industry another thing I’d say is to people who
we’re seeing a lot of layoffs right now who have transferable skills look to
take those skills into the games industry I’d love to see more mums coming back to work to think okay you
know I I’d like to try a different industry I’d like to try something else with the skills that I have because I
think you know we can’t escape the fact that we’re women we have babies we have
families to look after we are the carers whether we have babies or not we might be looking after parents
um and then we have menopauses and that is something that we’ve just got to
fight to get people to realize that you know of our gender that we have a lot to offer and just because we have to take
time out for some stuff it doesn’t mean there isn’t a brain at the end of it that can’t you know there can’t be
stimulated and put to Great use and be a real contribution so I’d like to see more women coming back from time off
after menopause I’d like to see more women coming back after time off for having their children and coming into this industry because I think um and
I’ve seen it I’ve done it I’ve I’ve recruited people who have come in from other Industries after having children
and take time out and they’ve loved it and I had a brilliant time so you know and just realizing how flexible it can
be as well for people coming back in and um we interviewed a lady uh she can code
recently he was a teacher and she said after I had children I realized you know being a teacher you have to be present
and I have to turn up and she said it didn’t work for me anymore so she trained on maternity leave to become a
developer and it meant she could work remotely and you know it was just a fantastic story of more mum’s not
thinking the same way and that you can you know then work your career around
your life uh your life balance um and that’s that’s exactly what what
she did and I wanted to ask you a little bit about those important skills but it would already You Know spoken about some
of the important skills in coming into the gaming industry um do you think there are others for a
career in gaming do I think certain skills I mean
what people need is so Broad in our industry you can be an accountant and
really getting in get into game economies you can be um and get and become you know a CFO of
a company and really understand you’re running it’s almost like running your own little country because you you are
setting an economy um you know or you can be somebody who’s really interested in data and analytics
and you know understanding the trends that are going there are so many different applicable skills I couldn’t
say I couldn’t say one bravery maybe yes there’s a soft skill that is necessary
because what I’ve found is that people are scared of tech
all this get that they think they don’t know enough to be able to get into into technology
well they think they’re an artistic type and not really a scientific type
and my thing is jump in you know you will find that I think I’m
an uh an artistic type and yet you know all of the science and everything else and the the the the the real nerdy deep
and stuff really really interests me and I think if you are a communicator like I
am you can take something that’s a really deeply technical proposition and
be able to translate that for people so they really understand the pure benefits of that proposition
um there are so many different skills I don’t know but I think bravery on the soft skill side of things is just be
open be free be brave and just go for it because you will get rewarded yeah are
you saying they’re about communicating I think there are probably not many roles in technology where you’re just expected
to sit and build a product and not actually communicate to anybody what it does and how it can be used
um I think that’s such a myth that you would come in you’d only write lines of codes and sit with your headphones on all day and I’ll talk to anybody um you
really do need those communication skills to uh to be able to be successful
um you mentioned Kelly earlier uh are there are there other amazing women shaking up the industry that we should
know about we’re going to have Kelly on here um at some point in the future so she’s one the Kelly Vera is definitely
one um liat at a company called adeo she is
probably the only woman director of product I’ve seen
um in the games industry on the sort of in the motor in a technical capacity and
she’s a real inspiration she’s very Pro women in gaming she um came from the
business side of things and she’s there now creating she’s created
um a a product which is literally the platform for audio advertising in games
I mentioned it a little bit but obviously it’s my mind’s on it I spent an hour yesterday literally about how
she got into this and she literally came from a business background and she did what I said which is jumped in and
really embraced what being a director of product was about and making a pro she
literally created this product and she is not a developer but she works to developing I said what do you see your
key role as and she said being a translator I translate what the business needs are and I translate them back to
the developer and then I take from what the developers feedback and I translate that back to the business and all the
time making sure that she’s meeting deadlines and seeing to clients needs so
she’s great who else uh Patty Toledo she’s an amazing woman in the games
industry again very Pro women and she um is you know she’s behind one of the
biggest she helps organize all the Pocket Gamer connect events she’s worked
it she’s worked at various games companies all the way through her contact book in games is phenomenal and
um well it’s really you know all these people that I’m talking about are always really willing to help other women
in the games industry um Peggy Ann souts she’s a um she is a
force of nature in in mobile tech she’s um she does all of the she does a lot of
content work with all of the biggest um mobile and games companies so I there
are so many amazing women I’ve probably missed a load Osama dink in turkey and
God willing everybody is um uh okay um in turkey and what a horrible
horrible time for them turkey is an amazing um Place uh for uh a lot of the games
companies all coming out of turkey now it’s a it’s amazing what’s happening there
um yeah I could go on there just Harriet Hughes at playstak she’s great and she’s
xca she’s amazing she’s running a a huge publisher um yeah lots of really amazing women
you’ve spoken a little bit about uh the way that the industry has changed and the way that gaming is changing are
there any future trends that you see that you think we should know about yeah so I think the the interesting
thing that’s going to happen in in gaming is the next iteration of the the internet
which people are calling the metaverse everyone has different interpretations
of what the metaverse are what is are um uh most of that is kind of
Pro proper profit I don’t know find another word uh most of that is put is
on the risk so you’re gonna have to edit this bit out that’s all right
most of which is propagated by meta um and uh the face the Facebook uh
through to meta sort of um changed and it really meta is all about
VR um because of the you know investment that they made into Oculus Rift and
metaverse is not about meta and it’s not about VR and AR and those can all be
um contributory Technologies um but the way the internet and how it
serves us is going is really blockchain is is happening web 3 is happening it’s
not going to go away um cryptocurrency is not going to go away
so you’ll start to see things like when you’re when you’re playing games it’s
really you invest a lot into the games that you play so if you’re playing away on Call of Duty or on fortnite you’re
investing your time in the play but as you invest you get rewards in the game whether that be the skin that you’re
wearing or whether that be the uh the glasses that you you’re looking through whatever
um access to secret places that nobody else has and that all that investment comes to
naught when you end the game that’s what’s going to stop that’s going to stop happening soon all that
investment that you put into building up these assets of your weapons or your skins that you’re wearing or your
special powers will become in my view um something that you can take with you
into other gaming environments and port with you and the most important part of that
is where you start to see Brands and internet and gaming all coming together
so this is why we are going to start to see a lot more
um branded content coming into games so and we’re seeing it a lot anyway you see Gucci and Roblox you see
um you know all the different uh like Yeezys in fortnite you see all these
different um Brands coming in and doing their different things so the convergence of
entertainment Brands and games is happening and will not go away and what I think is really exciting is
ugc user generated content so as much as your podcast is called chican code soon
it will be weekend code soon it will be weakened all generate everything that we
want um and ugc will a bit like do you remember when this all happened when we
were able to start doing our own podcast when we were able to start doing all our own blogs all our own
um uh uh video logs all that stuff is user generated content This Is Us using
these platforms which were previously owned by the broadcasters or the big news organizations the same thing will
happen in games as has happened with broadcast as has happened with news organizations
now with games people are going to start creating their own games their personalization will happen in games so
it’s honestly it’s the wild west at the moment in terms of how that’s all going
to settle down but that will happen that’s for me the next the next thing to
look out for yeah yeah and I must ask you why we’ve got you on the podcast
do you have a favorite game no I was thinking too many
oh it’s I know it sounds really funny but I try not to
because um if I’d said a favorite game I have a
lot of games companies that I work with and if I didn’t I would be in trouble so I love games
um the type of game that you that you prefer to play again I mean this is the
beauty of games isn’t it you know you’ve got your match threes and your casual hyper casual games your casual games you
can play a new one that I’m excited is coming out is um The Sims on Apple arcade that will be
coming out soon made by the same people who made SimCity I’m worried that I’m gonna get too addicted to that
um but it’ll be it’s I mean I’ve seen the prototypes it’s just beautiful and
then um you know you can you can look at more kind of I love Duolingo I mean in many
ways that’s gamified learning but to me that you know there’s a lot of gaming in that
um yeah so and you know the old original zelders and network Doom the old games I
can talk about with impunity
so much Jackie for joining us today it’s been an absolute pleasure to chat with you you too thank you for having me on
your show thank you and for everybody listening as always thank you for joining us and we hope to see you again
next time
