In a male-dominated industry, such as tech, it can be hard for women to be confident, assert themselves and find their voice.
But to encourage more women into the sector and to close the gender gap, we need female voices to be heard. Finding your voice could simply mean sharing your ideas on a project, communicating a different point of view or opinions, or speaking out against something you feel is wrong.
We sit down with Shaan Sood, Head of International Marketing at Sangoma, to talk about self-confidence, finding your voice, and speaking up at work.
Sangoma is a global leading provide of Communications as a Service (CaaS) and a United Communications (UC) expert. Shaan has worked within the technology and telecom industry for over 20+ years.
hello everyone thank you for tuning in I am Katie Bateman the content director at chican code and today we’re discussing
how to find your voice as a woman in Tech in a male-dominated industry such
as Tech it can be hard for women to be confident assert themselves and find their voice but to encourage more women
into the sector and to close the gender gap we need female voices to be heard now we’re lucky enough today to have
Shan soot head of international marketing at sengoma with us today to
talk about self-confidence finding your voice and speaking up at work welcome Shane
morning Katie thank you so much for this opportunity and yeah it’s a great topic
and subject and I’m really happy to if I can get any more females into our
industry because we do need them thank you so much for joining us to chat
about this as you said it’s a it’s an important subject so we’d love to kick off with a little bit of background
about yourself if that’s okay yeah so although I’m uh have been working in marketing it’s all for
numerous years I actually started life I am a techie at heart my degree is mass
and computer science uh so I’ll have worked in product marketing as well so
you know when you get the product guys then oh well I don’t know you might not understand this I’m like no give it to
me perfectly exactly and I think that’s something that’s always helped in my
career because well you know obviously with marketing you simplified a message however if you
understand what you’re talking about and what you’re trying to sell it’s so much easier you know it’s not fluffy words
and stuff and you can then actually take part in conversations with different
groups and you’re not just you know marketing unfortunately is often seen as just a fluffy stuff and actually we’re
so much more than that and you know I’m not afraid to get in there and say no
I’m sorry the product doesn’t do that and I’m not going to say it does and I
can you know have the confidence to know from a technical standpoint that what I’m saying is correct uh so yeah so
I as I say I started my career I was actually a software analyst for the part
of the garden group and um and then eventually ended up a bit of
product marketing Market intelligence and stuff and then ended up in full marketing role
um mainly in the software industry and I think it’s about three years ago I
joined sangoma um who are telecommunications so it’s a
bit of a challenge complete different industry um but because I’ve got the technical
background and I’m happy to learn and always want to learn you know I started off as the European marketing manager
and you know improve myself and now head of international marketing fancy titled
but it’s great fun I absolutely love it and so you started in a technical
background Institute um computer science was was there something about that maths and computer science that you really
loved when when you were young and you were picking yeah I just love maths and I’m one of those you know my my children
can’t see why you know they absolutely hate the subject but I absolutely loved it and it’s a funny story of how I got
into it it was like if you divide a number as a fraction you
can do it without the decimal if you divide you’ll end up with a recurring number like a third is 0.333 and I was
like wow that’s weird this was at the age of seven and I just
sort of went to it from there yeah and you know computer science is just
another language and it’s amazing you know these lines of code you write them and all of a sudden you get a picture on
the screen or you get you know um I think one of the things I did was write a mini booking application as in
travel booking um software program for my uh in those
days I’m sure my age was O levels but um which you know for anyone younger
listen that’s gcses and um you know it’s and since then I’ve sort of been
fascinated with a whole tech industry yeah um of what you can do with just
zeros or ones because that’s ultimately what it is yeah and it’s interesting to see that
you came in Via a very technical route but you you ended up in a marketing role which is great to hear because we hear
so many different routes into the industry um and the broad range of of uh roles
that are on offer um so it’s it’s great to hear that you you have the technical experience but also you’ve been able to move around
quite freely um and go into areas that you either want to try or prefer working in it it
sounds very flexible as an industry it is and you know I have to say
uh hats off to sangoma because they I I joined literally a month before
lockdown and it was like most companies here’s your laptop use your mobile phone
off you go at home whereas one of the things and I learned on the what our products could do by
simply having been in lockdown because you know we actually enable remote
working that is part of the you know this is what the company was built on yeah so they’ve been doing it for years
and it was like having to use our own products to work
um was a great learning curve um yeah you know it was like the right company to be at that time I know and
obviously I was like well I’m not really I’ve only been here a few weeks I’m not sure I want to give my my personal number out because I obviously don’t
have a work mobile at that point yeah just joined and said no no you don’t need to work mobile because the whole
point is this without applications
um anyone who phones you on mobile if you’ve got this app on there or see your work number and you can switch it off at
you know five o’clock you stop taking work calls it’s your personal number I thought oh how fantastic so actually
I’ve never ended up getting a work mobile because I’ve not needed it yeah um yeah but I think it’s that
flexibility this company gives you know um it’s even before I would guess even if
lockdown hadn’t happened they have the trust that you do your job and you do it
you know they’re not gonna I’m I haven’t got a manager who um clock Watchers you know sometimes
I’ll end up having to take calls at 7 pm but then again I might say well I’ve got to take my children somewhere and that’s
fine you know I’m not checked upon yeah and I think I’ve had that through most
of my career fortunately there’s been the odd job which has been very you know oh hang on where were you at your desk
at 2PM you know and I’ve got to be honest I didn’t work for that company for long because and I think that’s
where you need that strength to say I know what I’m doing I’m trustworthy I do my job
um and it works both ways and the pandemic has helped um with that quite a bit hasn’t it to
help with that trust and but you’re right there are still those companies that need to know exactly where you are
um and what you’re doing and you’re right it’s something that you know you don’t stick around long
um because you think you don’t trust me then you’re not gonna gonna get the most out of me
um Tech is still a male dominated field how
come how can women find their voice I mean you mentioned that you have a technical background if you do speak up
about something you you yeah you know you have that that technical knowledge um but what about somebody that doesn’t
you know how how can women find their voice well it depends because it depends on
what role you’re doing it was in an organization um you know you have to know
the industry so no you may not have to get under the horde um and know how important works and
stuff but you do need to know ultimately what it does what’s the
strength of that solution you know why would that why is a company selling it
um so in that way you can quite easily be successful in sales and marketing without a technical background because
but you have to spend the time and want to know why
and I think was it to be fair whether it’s male or female you have to ask the
question why you know if you’re not interested in the solutions any company has with tech or
otherwise then don’t work there you know um because one of the questions I did ask someone when was interviewing them
for a role when I worked in product marketing was if you could earn the same money that
you earn that you would be earning here at McDonald’s I mean it’s a bad example
but you know and it’s it’s like any job where you don’t it’s the same day in day out you
know you’re serving people um would you do it and the ones went who
said well we even considered it for a split second I knew they weren’t right yeah because that’s that’s not why you
got into Tech or into this industry it’s because you’re interested in it so if
you’ve got that underlying interest no you don’t have to code no you don’t have to be a techie but you’ve got to be
interested yeah and your day is very different in in Tech isn’t it as
somebody that worked at McDonald’s when I was a student yes I use that example I loved it and you
know that they have certain days where you do certain things and and as you say you you serve people every day but I
remember I used to have this sport on a on a Wednesday it would be a menu board
cleaning yeah and and you’d have to get up on a little step ladder
and every Wednesday I think oh it’s the same thing every week and you’re absolutely right it’s it’s in that
mindset of every day is different and and you want a career where every day
can be different and uh very fast paced and changes quite often and your right
to asking somebody um you know what what they would like to achieve in their day is is very very
different to um wanting that job in McDonald’s which is works for a lot of people absolutely
I’m not knocking it yeah you know don’t get me wrong you know one of these days I might think I’ve had
enough of the high pace and every single thing changing and I might just want an easy life but you know that’s the whole
point of tech is it innovates daily you know the people behind it you’ve got
entrepreneurs coming up you’ve got startups We Are Forever changing you
know just look at a mobile phone what it can do now compared to what they first
came out and you know TVs everything is being developed and if you want to work in an
industry that innovates and is changing then you know get into Tech but I would
also say do not be afraid and don’t be scared because oh I’ve got no idea how
that works you don’t actually necessarily need to know how it works you need to know what it does and what
its strengths are and also what it weaknesses are you know so you that way
if you know what it can do you can stand there confidently and talk to someone you know we all joke about with mobile
phones is oh God we need a teenager to tell us how to use after features on it
um I pretty much say it’s the same in Tech you have to be that teenager you’ve got to be confident to know what
everything does you know it’s like you know we have phones we’ve had a new range of phones come out recently and
I’m I’ve had to literally sit there with the phone for a day playing with it and
making sure I know how it works and what every button does not that I need to use every button and not that I’ll ever talk
about it but if on the other chance someone says well I’m gonna admit it but
can you not do this or do that and you’re like actually yes we can
um but at the same time be confident enough if someone does get too technical on you say actually that’s not my area
of expertise however I’m quite happy to you know get your conversation with our
sales engineer or product manager or whoever and be confident to say you know that’s
not me but I will find someone who can answer that yeah just knowing you don’t have to know
everything you just need to know yeah know your job backwards don’t worry
about knowing everyone else’s job because you know um that’s what they’re there for to back
you up um no we’re team and always I think if you work for a company that has that
will support you in that you know um with whether it’s internships or
extra training and help and if you ever find yourself you’re working
for someone who’s like well why don’t you know that you should know that by now look to move on or or stand up for
yourself and say well hang on a minute you haven’t given me the training and I am willing to learn but you know I’m not
expecting to know it after back um and that that type of communication
that is it is that just about verbal communication or is that body language
eye contact and I suppose that’s very different now on Zoom than in person it is which is why you know although we are
completely flexi working um our CEO has us that we look to come back in the office for at least three
days a week you know it had to have to be full-time you’d have to be there for set you know but just for a few hours
you come in and it is that body language it’s you know you can’t work without it
um because I work alongside our VP of sales you know we obviously look at strategy for international what we’re
doing what’s coming up and you know yes we do these video calls
quite frequently and yes you can see body language and yes you can see the person but we’ve both said it’s just something
different when we’re starting a room together you know we just Thrive I don’t know why we could
come up with better ideas I don’t know there’s no reason we shouldn’t um
be able to work remotely but we just get a better Vibe and you know human beings
like to be we are still herd animals and it is still nice to be with other people
um but again I think Tech gives that flexibility if you’re the sort of person who would actually prefer to work alone
and remotely then that’s enabled and I think that’s
the biggest thing that will help females is you know you can get that work life
balance you will get that flexibility now whereas before it would have been
difficult to oh I’ve got to leave the office for an hour I’ve got to go and get the kids I’ve got to do this
and they would have been able to whereas now you know um I do it myself sometimes uh it’s like
actually no I need to be home because my daughter does Athletics I’m going to take her there
um and everyone else on a Tuesday between 4 30 and 5
um usually unavailable and it’s not an issue you know I don’t even think about it it’s just part of my daily routine
um I think once we get that then you’re going to get more females
into you know let’s face it unfortunately it is still the female who is the main carer
right you’re wrongly you know that’s society and I think that’s a much bigger conversation than we’ve got time for
today but um the biggest challenge as a woman uh in a
male dominated field and I suppose that that ties into that doesn’t it and and
yeah being sometimes being um the the caregiver at home and as you
say now things have changed a little bit it’s it’s having that extra flexibility
um but I suppose you know how do we mean how do they still overcome these these
types of challenges I think it is willing to be flexible yourself and you know to be honest we
also want to be the main carers quite often it’s not that we have to be it is
I think you know on biologically females and males are different we are
naturally more nurturing because that’s just our makeup so you know you have to
be also like not want to change that um I don’t think we should
um and it’s when it’s you know can you have it all it’s also do you want it all
um when I only took on the role of head of international because I knew it would fit was where I’m at and where my kids
are at you know um and it suits me it may not suit you and you have to it’s
one of those where don’t Thrive to be the CEO if it’s not right for you
if you are going to be a CEO you’ve also got to be prepared as flexible as any
job is you are still going to be doing 60 80 hours a week you know because
that’s what it is and if was it male or female if you’re not
prepared to do that then don’t go for it but at the same time don’t say it’s not fair because that is you know that is a
role of a sea level um anyone in in our sea level is that
you do have to give up your personal life
um and I don’t think every female is necessarily as prepared to do that we are getting more because they are
um and I that’s not to do with you know men not being available for their families
or stuff that is to do with you as an individual and I’ve got to be honest I
at one point my career I did think I wanted to you know get to the absolute top and stuff and then as life carried
on and I think also you know was locked down as a staff I thought actually no I’m happy at this level
I love what I do as long as I love what I do then that’s enough
you know because I do want the time to go and watch track races or you know sit
in the cold outside watching something or even just sit and watch TV you know
and just have something I don’t want to be on a plane yeah you know early in my career I was flying like weekly into
Europe or monthly for meetings but at that time it suited me it was I don’t
want to do it now um I guess you know you do progress but
um it is be careful what you wish for in a way um because yes Tech will be a I don’t
think Tech says anti-female as we would say I think
females choose not to do it as well yeah I mean yeah I hear the wrong things
as well don’t know about an industry and think maybe that’s not for me yeah exactly and you know it’s like our
head of I.T is female um ahead of a couple of product areas of emails so I
don’t think I have actually found in sangoma as I have in other companies
I’ve worked for the lack of female leaders I actually think we do pretty well
um and I’ve always felt as a company they just take the best
it doesn’t matter you know your gender or race or anything else it is can you
do the job are you a good fit for this company and you know and that’s all that matters
I’ve worked for a couple of companies like that I’ve worked for a couple that haven’t been like that you know I have I
worked for IBM and to be fair IBM was very good at diversity and female roles
you know when I was there we’re talking about 20 odd years ago but they were the
first major tech company to have a female on
I’m trying to say on the board she was on the board she was basically a head of um
a division of IBM which might not sound much now but going back
then it was absolutely amazing you know yeah so and they’re really good training
staff aren’t there yeah I remember thinking that people have been there sort of 40 years and and they were
having to make sure that people didn’t just you know uh flat flat out retire
because people were dying after they retired so they they had this kind of ramp off program at IBM because people
were there so many years because you know they said it as a great company
um to be at and they really did you know do try to absolutely yeah great and you know the more tech
companies that do that um the better you know and it is our
instance you have to you’ve got to look after your staff if you look after them they should
hopefully look after you as a company you know um and be willing to go the extra yard
as I say I couldn’t actually tell you how many hours a week I do you know because it’s just getting the job done
um you know you’ve got a deadline meet the deadline sometimes if because of we’re a Canadian
company if we would need to do calls before time difference I can take a call eight o’clock at night
it doesn’t bother me you know it’s fine um at the same time you know on occasion
I might need to do a 6 a.m call with Australia again it’s if it was every
single day then that would be my choice if that’s the hours I want to work but it’s not and
I think that’s if there’s one word I would leave for is flexibility on both
sides yeah um a lot of our listeners they’re both and second job is so how do you find that
confidence when you’re you’re relatively new and you spoke a little bit before about the importance of being in the
office and and knowing people’s body language and I’ve always thought if I
were new to the industry now and I was working remotely I don’t know how I would find that confidence if if you
know I didn’t get to meet people regularly and you know to thankfully I
had many years of building up my confidence being around people and before I ended up working at a company
where we’re mostly remote exactly yeah how how do they do that yeah It’s Tricky
um and I think you have to try and make that time to meet people even if it’s
just a coffee you know or you can decide if you can’t necessarily meet your work colleagues go
and work from a hub somewhere just so there’s other people around and I think
you know socialize more and it’s getting that confidence to be able to speak up in any setting not just work
um you know you have to build it up and hopefully wherever you are working there
is someone who will nurture you and look out for you you know it’s like when
we’ve got the youngsters um it doesn’t matter what as a female to be
fair it doesn’t matter what department you’re working in it’s just someone you just look out for them and this is
nothing against my male colleagues just as a female you know they wouldn’t think to do that as a female to a female you
know you need your confidence boosting you need that self-esteem and just help them out just have a chat over the
coffee and oh how’s it going yeah everything okay that’s all you need to say sometimes
yeah um yeah because I wanted to ask you a little bit about um
female leaders and encouraging more women into the leadership roles I suppose that that ties into what you
just said about you know making sure that you you help other people in your organization as well to to feel like
they have the confidence to you know even um as you said just a coffee with somebody within your organization if
they want to talk about a possible role that they want to go yeah um even just you know chatting through
with them about what what that would look like and whether or not they think they have the confidence uh to go for it
and the skills to go for it and as you mentioned earlier that making that choice and whether it’s right for them
in their circumstances but says as you said it’s just it’s making time isn’t it
to to encourage uh your other colleagues which exactly as you said if we’re not in the
office we probably just don’t find the time to do that as often as we did no I mean but to be fair I mean I’ve got
you know people working in Latin America Asia and stuff and it is setting up a
call whether it’s bi-weekly monthly putting at that time half an hour in the
diary just to chat not necessarily work because obviously you are going to talk
to some extent but you know how stuff oh yeah what do you do over the weekend get to know the mother person so you’ve got
something to talk about and then you know when you do meet in person you’ve already got
um a bit of knowledge about that person and you can ask them oh so you know how was that when you went to wherever you
went and oh I know you’re on holiday in Vegas or whatever and you can chat to
them and I think it is that yeah as a I think in our possessions we have a
responsibility to the Next Generation coming through to guide them to help
them and yeah to try and get more females in equal footing so they’ve got
the confidence that’s what it’s about it’s just having that confidence yeah um you know it takes a while some some
people are naturally confident absolutely fine but as his aunt and
no it’s a it is our world to get the best out of those people I think the environment of where you work helps we
you know here if something goes wrong no one is blamed immediately it is like
let’s sort the situation out first you know if Something’s Happened let’s just get that resolved and we fix that then
let’s review how it happened and then look at how it’s not going to happen again
um and that’s it there’s within obviously if uh we’ve never had
anything that’s serious happen but you know you cannot have repercussions on an individual big
um let’s say it was gross misconduct which is a completely separate topic but
people make mistakes and what we mustn’t do is come down on them
um for it because you know a mistake has happened what’s the point of having a go
and blaming them and knocking their confidence um because you know we’ll make mistakes
we’re all human and then what you’ve got to do is get them to understand actually
if I’ve done something wrong I can now go to Shannon say oh no help what do I
do you know to have that I’m not gonna get blamed and in trouble for doing it
yeah to be honest it’s a little bit like looking after kids
and I think um from a personal level you know I am a
different manager since having a family for that very reason you are more tolerant
um but it is having that time yeah
their confidence as you say and knocking their confidence because
um I wanted to talk to you a little bit about tricky tricky situations I suppose if you don’t have that confidence in the
first place how how can you then go on to deal with those tricky conversations that you need to have you know whether
that be discrimination or at the minute a lot of people in the news you know
they’re having to approach their employers about pay Rises and yeah you’re not sure if you don’t have that
confidence in the first place how how do you approach those types of situations
it that’s hard because confidence takes time you’ve got to feel happy in your
role happy in what you’re doing and I think it’s it builds daily
the more you do so I’m saying you know the better you’ll get at it and the more
confident you’ll feel talking about it um and you know I would say prepare
preparation is a huge thing write down everything and yeah you know we say look in the
mirror do your presentation to yourself and yeah I’m sure like everyone I’ve stood there and thought
okay what am I gonna say I haven’t got a clue I haven’t got a clue oh you know even now I still some I still get the
butterflies if I have to present in front of a room full of people even though I’m 100 confident in what I’m
gonna say I know my stuff I’ve done my research you know I’ve prepared my
slides all correct there should there is no issue and I think it’s just getting over that first five seconds of oh hello
everyone and then that’s the first line isn’t it and that’s it you know as long as you can get through that
um and you I always feel that I talk too fast and I have you know which is a one
thing it’s like you try and rush to get through it um I still do that now and I’ve been in
you know my career for years so it’s just
also understand that doesn’t matter who you are you will always have nerves yeah and actually
nerves are a good thing because it stops you being overconfident as well yeah are you mentioned no you’ve been in
your career for for years now and you and you’ve learned a lot what what do you think is the most important lesson
you’ve learned during your career um that you’ll always be learning
you never know it all and if you think you do know it all then you’re probably gonna get bored
um so to me it’s like each day I’m looking for something new to learn and
develop but that’s me as a person um and yeah it’s
and also self-belief you know I’ve worked hard I’ve studied I’ve got my qualifications I know what
I’m doing is to have that self-belief so actually what I’ve done is right you know
um and I think that’s the biggest thing but also sometimes you’d well have an off day you know it’s
just like the other day I was trying to write a um a data sheet I just saw an email going out
I just couldn’t get it I mean I wrote it about four times and India and I sort of passed it on to a colleague and said I’m
struggling yes you know it just doesn’t sound good I was in two minutes he just spotted a
few things I said oh what about this I said I said thank you that’s it you know so don’t be afraid to know that you
might not always get it right you’re gonna have an off day we all have an off day and it’s okay to have an off day
um it’s like anything take a breather take a step back if you can come back to it sometimes you
can’t because you’re on a deadline and then go and talk to someone else or phone someone else and say help you know
don’t be afraid to ask help for help yeah that’s the one thing as far as I’m concerned well we we’re almost out of
time but I want to ask you one last question do you have any advice for other women working in a male dominated
team and believe in yourself and you know do
stand your ground don’t be that female who’s pushed to the background and what I’d say the one thing is if
you’re in a meeting and you find a person just talks to the mail and not yourself which I do find and
it’s actually your field and your expertise um one would hope that the male involved
would actually then refer it to you but if they don’t I mean to be fair I my
colleagues won’t say uh that’s not me that’s shiny but I talked to her but if they don’t do that
don’t be afraid to stand your ground and say ah yes you know whoever you’re
talking to I can answer that one that’s my you know that’s my bag so be
confident enough to stand your ground and not get railroaded out
I think that’s one word is try and believe you’re there for the right you’re there because you deserve to be
there not because you’re female yes exactly that is lovely positive
advice to India we are already out of time thank you so much Shan for taking the time with me it’s it’s been an
absolute pleasure um and to everybody listening as always thank you for joining us and we hope to
see you again next time
