Coding is a hugely in-demand skill and one that isn’t likely to drop anytime soon. Because of this, a career in coding is a great option if you’re thinking about getting into the tech industry.
A career in coding can cover everything from Data Scientist, Programmer, UX Designer and Video Game Developer. So if you love tech, enjoy problem solving and are curious, a career in coding could be on the cards for you.
In this episode, we’ll be looking at what a coding career can look like, what skills you need and why you don’t necessarily need a degree to get ahead
We’re joined by Frances Sneddon, Chief Technology Officer at Simul8. Frances joined Simul8 20 years ago when it was a tech start-up and has been there as it went on to become a global enterprise working with clients such as NASA and General Motors, offering simulation technology solutions to help improve process efficiency.
hello everyone and thank you for tuning in as always I am Kaylee batesman the content director at chicane code and
today we are discussing why you need a career in coding a coding career can cover anything from a data scientist to
a software engineer programmer ux designer or even a video games developer
so if you love Tech enjoy problem solving and a curious a career in coding
could be for you today I have the fabulous Francie sneddon Chief technology officer at simulate and we’ll
be diving into what a coding career can look like what skills you need and why you don’t necessarily need a degree to
get ahead welcome Francis hi Kelly thanks for having me thank you so much for joining us this morning and
can we start with a little bit of background about yourself please yeah sure and so I’m Chief technology
officer at simulate cooperation as you said um simulate is a business process
simulation software company and so we help people build simulations of their
processes whether that’s a manufacturing line um a hospital Department a call center
and allow people to test out their ideas in a risk-free environment so what happens if you double your staff what
happens if you buy a second machine is it going to increase my throughput and
so and then and lots of other kind of different kind of applications um so yeah it’s a it’s a really
interesting and place to work with and it gets us into lots of different areas it’s really exciting yeah yeah and why
did you choose a a career in technology did are you going to say that you fell into Tech or did you plan it I I know I
did I feel into it I feel into it so um as you alluded to it in your introduction I don’t have a computer
science degree and my background is math statistics and something called
operational research which is sort of maths Supply to business um and I as part of my degree between
sort of third and fourth year I did the summer internship um actually at simulate and so I did
actually start there as an intern um and it was a software business which what 20 is it 20 20 bit and about years
ago and it was just sort of the year 2000 you know everybody’s talking about the.com Boomers things like that so
software businesses were something that we hadn’t I had never even heard about it wasn’t a thing that I was even contemplating and then suddenly I was in
a software business and not doing Computing encoding at that point um but using the software to
um go across the world consultancy projects and things like that with it and and yeah just sort of then from that
kind of realized actually I really like software alley building stuff so yeah so
fell into it by accident but and have been there ever since yeah it’s interesting though you said building
stuff did you it was that probably something that you didn’t realize until you got into it that actually it’s not
um you know about lots of numbers and uh coding that you actually get to build
you know real life projects and and make make projects that actually you know are bought by people and perhaps you didn’t
realize that before you before you came in and I think it’s definitely I mean I think we talk about tech or we talk
about coding or software um but actually probably a closer description is product you know it’s
products that we’re kind of making mine happens to be a software products that
I’m building and and yeah it’s um the dots and the numbers and the variables
they all come together and we push that amazing button run or compile depending what you’re kind of in and suddenly boom
this thing that you have imagined and busy appears on screen and
yeah it’s it’s addictive there’s nothing like that moment of just going wow I built something so I think that’s
probably the part that a lot of people don’t understand or I just don’t consider you know we often I think
particularly at school and even through University when people are introduced to coding it’s about having written a
script to do a bit of a job crunch a bit of kind of numbers and those kind of types of things but yeah what what gets
me really excited is that is exciting but it’s the building and stuff it’s it’s creating that product yeah it’s
nice to hear that you studied a stem uh subject we hear a lot you know especially at University a lot of girls
don’t want to go on to study stem subjects but you you studied maths and was there something about that at school
that probably Drew you to to want to continue studies in that area yeah do
you know it so up until I always enjoyed Mars I’m always enjoyed math the it’s
the problem-solving element of it um you know um give me a Sudoku code on a beach and
you know I’m in a happy place and so I like solving problems but actually what
I thought I was going to do and was always the plan right up until um the end of six year and high school
here and that’s that’s what we call in kind of Scotland um was I was going to be a lawyer
um so you know I’d done all the extra work to get the kind of the extra credits that you needed to make sure you
got into a good school had done the extra Latin class he’s doing so I was I was full I’m going to be a lawyer and I
was going to save every innocent person that had ended up in jail that was that was it probably because of what you saw
on TV at the time but um actually ended up doing a knitting competition
um as sort of to try and supplement application and spoke to some of the law students they didn’t realize this was
not going to be the career that I thought it was going to be and there was going to be a lot more maybe sort of selling houses and it was going to be a
harder place for me to break into with my background than I expected to be and so then I had to go back to First
principles and just look at what did I enjoy and what was I good at and that was maths it was maths um and I I knew
it would give I knew that at that point therefore I didn’t know what I wanted to do so I knew it would give me a generalized platform to go into it in
terms of being a girl and kind of doing that um yeah I mean it’s six year at high
school during your six year studies there was a handful of girls and there was a handful of boys and it just never
ended my head um it never it was never a consideration that um as I get old that wasn’t
something I would do but I have to be candid and see my mom as a physics teacher and so in our house there was no
jobs for the girls and no jobs for the boys my mom was the one that fixed the car and because she was quite mechanical
and so there was never any content text or oh she can’t because it’s technical
or kind of anything like that so probably I have to clear that my mum with that sort of platform that it just
it just wasn’t a consideration I enjoyed it so I picked it and I was going to be the only girl in the class didn’t care
yeah it’s interesting that you wanted to be a lawyer first because you saw it on TV and that’s that’s something that we
hear so much that you know the the technology role models and we know they’re there but trying to make sure
that they’re seen and they’re visible to young girls and I remember when I was younger I wanted to be a k80 the world
correspondent because she was on TV and that’s what I saw my parents were horrified and thought nope she’s not
doing that um but I ended up going into journalism but as as you say once you actually start to look at the careers
um that are more suited for you they’re not necessarily the ones that you might have seen on TV yeah yeah and I I do I
do wonder if the reason sort of the war zone appeal tube is the same way that law appealed to me I wanted to make a
difference in the world and so you see the role models that are presented to you and the ones that are allowing you
to do that and so you gravitate towards them but yeah when you’re forced to kind of to step back and sort of say what are
you what are you good at it does make you look at things differently and and I think um
I think people are not just girls boys as well need to know what they the
options are in a Tech Career and a tech career doesn’t necessarily mean that I’m going to make the next big game for the
PlayStation or Xbox you know there’s there’s companies like simulate that are out there where we are making the world
a better place you know but we we’re just we’re doing it through software you know we’re making changes to the world
and you know last last week I was home from one of our our users
um who’s a charity out in South Africa and because of the software that I’m building
um they are able to figure out how to double number of people are getting tested for HIV and I’m not taking credit
for the work because the work that they do that’s the real difference but I think it’s those stories that need to
get out there that of the bread that’s available um of tech engineers and how do you get
that onto television or wherever it else is that kids can be exposed to and that’s the challenge and that’s the
challenge for girls and boys and to see their options yeah yeah definitely I I
agree with you making sure there’s that visibility there and just understanding as you say there’s always that
stereotype isn’t there with technology and coming in and what you’re actually going to be doing and day to day and can
we ask a little bit about your uh coding um career what what does your journey
look like there your your career journey in coding and so when I started at
simulate um primarily I was working as a consultant and our software is it’s
maths and start space so it’s Technical and a few of the projects um required me to start dabbling I guess I’m writing
sort of many kind of like on this applications and from there that’s where my curiosity was kind of sparked
um and it just sort of gradually Grew From kind of there and um so I I went to our founder of the
company and sort of said you know doing a bit of this coding and I quite like it and I I don’t know would there be any
possibility I could just do a bit more of that or explore with them and he jumps at it and he was so supportive and
and he gave me my first clothing license you know okay here’s here’s what a function is here’s what procedure is
here how it all kind of comes together because I think when you haven’t done software encoding how you go from some
words and numbers and how it creates this visual thing is it’s quite a hard concept to get you around and so from
there um just gradually started doing more coding and then formally made the switch and and sort of went into
um software development and we’re started building up um you know building features in our
sort of R2 and small bugs features you gradually do bigger features bigger bugs
um and then um started ended up leading the development team and so around the
development team and then from there um progressing CTO and social technology
officer so I don’t do as much supporting as I would like these days and it’s much more of a strategy and sort of product
management and various different kind of Parts but um but yeah so it starts off small and then I think it just gets sort
of bigger but I’ve had no formal training along the way which I um I’m not embarrassed to see you know I
think and being coached and mentored and you know and these days there’s lots more options available things like
coplan or similar kind of places where they can help do that switch but even without training you can do it and it’s
just a skill it’s just a skill that anyone can learn yeah and it’s that hunger I suppose isn’t it to keep
learning in an area that you’re really enjoying I know I took some training in um it was very beginners HTML and CSS
years ago and I thought I’ll go down this route I write about it a lot I’ll I’ll learn to code and as much as I
enjoyed it I think I got to a point where I thought for me to go on and to learn and to actually have a job in this
area I really have to commit at this point and you know go off and keep learning and I think I mentally hit a
wall and maybe it wasn’t for me but um it’s just finding that path for you isn’t it and just to continually learn
and as you say I suppose you must reach a point then when you realize actually I could go on and apply for a job in this
you know I’m I’m now at a point where I know what I’m doing yeah yeah you can’t you do and I suppose
you always feel a bit of imposter syndrome I think we all do for various different reasons but I think when you’re you’re making a switch like that
you always feel a bit like I haven’t got the degree am I qualified enough but I think it’s remembering all the other
parts that you bring in and they’re also a bit like yourself you can code for a while it’s a good perspection into
clothing doesn’t mean coding forever um and you can bring different parts to it so part of making the switch from
being a consultant into managing the field team and becoming a CTO was was also in about what what is the what’s
the best practice in terms of how you run a software development team you know things like agile and things like that
would just accommodate at this time and so it was understanding what’s what’s the best way to create a best performing
team what’s the right way to approach developing a product and making sure
that it sticks to vision and delivers on that vision and is cohesive um as well and so it as you as you go
through your career and and sort of and a product kind of company for for a bit
of a word or take and the skills you need to change cycling and they don’t all code and zombies like your entry
point you know when you need all these other skills the soft skills I guess um as well as the kind of the technical kind of skills so so I think you can
start I guess is what I’m saying and sometimes like yourself you may be at the ceiling you think okay I’ve explored this and this it was curious it was fun
um yeah or maybe you start to see the other possibilities you know and having that
Foundation opens you up to other places like you said in your intro you know you exercise it can just be a great project
manager you can be a great team leader you don’t always need to code for the entire of your career yeah I think the
great thing about coding as well is that you can do it at any point in your career it’s not like you have to be a
student and you learned code and you go off and you get your first uh job in technology and we had a webinar raised
recently and a lot of our speakers were asking you know I’m in my full tutor I’m
in my 50s is it too late to learn to code and one of our speakers she learned to code on maternity leave
um and you know and she realized the job that she was in wasn’t working for her in terms of work-life balance and she
learned to code and she went off and she’s a junior developer now um so I think it’s that’s the beauty of
it you can you can learn if you you know want to go off and and learn something new you can do it at any stage you do
you absolutely can you you absolutely can learn to any stage um and there’s so many resources out
there now as well to kind of help you kind of learn um and it’s also realizing that um you
may feel that you’re starting from zero but you probably aren’t and because I’d done maths and starts I knew how to
think logically so there was a huge proportion of the learning was already done you know because you have worked
with people for a long time or you already know how to get the right information out of people you know as a
consultant so there’s lots of skills that you’re already bringing to it that um you you bring something unique to it
I guess everybody does and you have more of a bounce Point than you kind of think but um and there’s lots of opportunities and
I think that’s the thing as well is that um you can learn on your maternity leave you don’t need to be doing it in your
work you know you can build a little website um just for whatever kind of reason or
you can program your Pat Raspberry Pi to run your heating system at home there’s
lots of different ways just to explore it without making a commitment and seeing do I enjoy it is it fun is there
something I want to learn a bit more of before you commit yeah and in terms of day to day what what does a coding day
look like right you said you don’t code as much anymore but what but what did it look like you know when you did
so I think I think the picture that everybody would have and and it’s like
you’re sitting in front of a laptop or a computer and you’re just sort of bashing cold out all day long you know I think
that’s the picture you get and talking to me wrong there are days like that you know and and actually sometimes a really
good fun days because it’s the ultimate problem solving when you’re building something so and so there are definite
days like that but then there’s actually a lot of humor interaction and with it you know so they’re particularly similar
in the way that we approach kind of coding and when I was I don’t have
um software developers I have product developers because we try to integrate sort of some the product thinking and
the software development skills together so you’re really thinking about the users so sometimes it’s speaking to users and sort of understanding right
okay how are you using this feature is it working for you what’s not working for you and what other pain points are
you can have in um it’s interacting with other people in the company to understand right what
direction is the company going in and so that I can think about what direction the software is going to kind of go in
so um there’s a lot of speaking to people and there’s a lot of thinking about how
I’m going to approach design in a feature so that it’s it’s going to be usable and it’s going to create a good
kind of experience and then there’s thinking about how am I going to stretch my code now to make it work really well
um and then you get to the closing part and you’re doing it and then after you’ve done the coding part and I think
this is the this is the part that’s probably where you need your resilience and something’s frustrating because you’ve coded it and then you take it out
for feedback and for testing and you figure out okay right well I didn’t get that bit quite right okay and there’s a
bug here and whatever else so they need to work your way through that and sort of and yeah so there’s the whole kind of release kind of procedure as well so
yeah and so it’s much more quite a lot before you get to the actual coding yeah yeah there is and there should be you
know if um if you’re if you’re doing it right because because at the end of the day your code is only useful or valid or
kind of has a purpose it’s if it’s produced something that somebody can use
that they get value from and they I don’t think about the software you
know so I don’t want my users to think about my software I want them to think about the problem they’re solving so the
ultimate is is that the software has the feature has just been so seamless and so intuitive for them to use that they
haven’t had to think about it and they just think about the problem they’re solving so there’s a lot of thought that
goes into that and first point to to get that right yeah and and that leads nicely on to my next question about what
skills do you need for a career in coding as you mentioned there problem solving you mentioned that your background in maths as help and logical
thinking but it also sounds like you really need to be a team player as well I mean you would have a lot of contact
with a lot of colleagues and from from the day that you just described so there’s a lot more to it than just you
know technical skills yeah you know there absolutely is um I mean it starts with a technical skill so you don’t drink the logical thinking um and that
is a huge kind of part of it um but communication and it’s communication and lots of different ways
there’s communication with your own personal team members and so building those relationships and you know just
understanding how to speak to one another about the right approaches that we’re going to collaborate kind of together and there is communication with
users um and being able to it’s almost consultative so being able to hear what
you’re saying I I don’t like this I’m frustrated by this but actually being
able to get it the real nugget of what it is that they need because often what people will Express is is what they’re
frustrated with not actually what and they think they know what’s going to solve the problem but that’s not necessarily kind of it and so there’s
communication at that kind of level there’s then um as you go further on any career there’s communicating and to
board or to kind of to customers or kind of that kind of type of communication as well and so also being able to
communicate well with technical people be able to communicate technical things to non-technical people is another kind
of like skill that’s kind of there as well um but I think an awful lot of it when the communication it comes down to
simplification you know and I think that’s a real skill that if you can just
take things back to this simple kind of core what what’s the real problem that we’re trying to solve here and what’s
the simplest way to communicate that to people I think that’s a big part of it as well and the other kind of part like
I said you will get lots of bugs but only certainty that with software is that there will be bugs that you affects
me well so you also need some resilience now to get you through those days as well yeah yeah you mentioned a lot about
communication as has any of that changed because of covid and remote working or is that actually improves the way that
that teams work it’s it’s definitely a challenge it’s definitely a challenge
um and you I think particularly when things when you’re um on board and new
staff members you know you miss everything around the table and being able to see as a leader I miss just
being able to look at somebody and sort of say oh what’s going on there you’re all right you know and just being able
to kind of check in and realize that the stock and just give that kind of instant kind of advice and so there are kind of
challenges with it but equally you have things like slack and everything else and sort of a web meetings and so
sometimes it’s easier to get people together because we can get them all on a web account so there’s pluses and
minuses and there’s definitely policy symptoms yeah yeah and so you mentioned um you
don’t have a computer science degree um but do you have any advice for our
listeners who perhaps they’re looking to get into coding but don’t have a degree you mentioned that you weren’t formally
trained and if you’ve got any advice there on on where to get started student and what to do
yeah I mean I think I think the first part of the advice I would give is is to see is just do it you know just just do
don’t be scared by it and because like I said earlier I think coding can especially it’s depicted on television
you know these super Geniuses are just in like 30 seconds creating kind of something and it just appears like magic
and it can seem big and scary but the reality is that you’re going to start small and that’s what I’d say is start
small with something and some of the earliest projects I did were um were more what I would call hacking
than programming you know sort of taking some website code and getting the colors
to change and things like that so understanding so so I think starting small
um and then there are so many resources out there now you know so if you’ve got your code academy and there’s all sorts
of kind of um websites and things that you can go on where you can just do a little kind of sample kind of projects so so I think
start small um and then pick some pick a little private project and something that’s
going to deliver value to you or it’s going to be fun um as well and and just do something
that’s useful and then and then as you progress I think if you make that decision I’d find a mentor you know I
find a mentor that’s going to help you um I suppose pointing in the right
direction you know I think some of the reasons I was able to do it without formal training was because our founder was able to say right okay this is what
you need to know now you’ve you’ve learned this kind of part right now what you need to know is how to structure the
data right go off and sort of learn about that or now now you need to know how to kind of architect something in a
slightly bigger way so if you can find a mentor that will guide you kind of through it um as well and I think that will help
you I think that’ll help you an awful lot yeah you just uh touched upon resources there and and finding
resources and that work for you is a do you have any favorite resources books
networking groups that you’re part of yeah I mean some of I’d like like I said I’ve said a few
times I think for me certainly in the role that I do product and software development are so kind of interlinked
and so some of the resources that I point people to particularly if you’re thinking about working in a product
company or actually in product management and so one of it’s a really really old book but one of my favorite
books is one that’s called Don’t Make Me Think and and it’s just a really simple book that shows you and pictures of
websites things that were good from the usability point of view things that were kind of bad and the whole premise is just don’t make the user think you know
and so I think that’s a great book for sort of getting your head into sort of thinking like a user and sort of how you design things and so similarly and mind
the products and we do conferences and they sort of do kind of Bloods and things like that and they’re really they
do some great kind of thinking around that um I think you touched on networking and I think that’s something that wasn’t
available very early in my kind of career and is now in an abundance obviously covert there was a gap
and so yeah so I would say um you go out and network and there’s so many different kind of groups and
probably finding something local we’re saying it gives you people that you can go for a coffee so we’re a member of um
Scotland is which is a trade body um up in Scotland for the the tech sector and these are lots of great
conferences and events and I’ve met so many people there um one of my favorite ones is the CTO Meetup which I call my personal therapy
session and just because it’s great to go and talk I think what’s good about the networking and what I would say is
if you’re making a switch try and find a networking environment where there’s other people have made the switch because a big part of what the
networking gives you is just sort of seeing right oh I’m finding this really frustrating this is really difficult and
somebody else going yeah me too and you’re going oh okay yes just hearing it’s not just you yes so I think that’s
what I think yeah go and find something find something local and find something with similar kind of people in a summer position and so what you’re you’re
trying to you know tackle the career in some way that you are yeah because it must be quite easy to
sit at home and you’re sitting there you know thinking you’re learning and and you might hit a wall you might be
struggling on on what to do next and just to hear other people say you know it’s it’s not just you and would just
give you so much energy to inspiration to keep going and you know it’s okay I’ll I’ll get over it and try something
try something different you will and then as well with the networking as well you’ll probably find that um you know
going to conferences and different things you just hear different ideas you know and there’s maybe a problem you’ve been back on again and again and you
hear somebody’s got a slightly different way of approaching it you know whether that’s the run of the team or how
they’ve approached a particular technical cut and you think ah okay right and suddenly you you can see the way forward as well so it’s so it’s a
combination of that but the support is invaluable um yeah yeah now it’s well known that there are
enough women in technology um and we’re firm Believers that she can code
um and that you can’t be what you can’t see which we already spoke about earlier and you know you wanted to be a lawyer
for instance because you because you saw it on TV and do you have any role models uh in Tech now
it’s really tough I’ve saw many Role Models I’m really privileged in all the different
um roles that I’ve worked in various different boards and sort of it simulate to work with
um so many amazing female kind of people so there’s actually too many um to mention and and I suppose for me
my role models are um more the people that I see day-to-day if you’re not really see and and can
learn from and seeing those kind of like small kind of interactions um so yeah but I do know what you mean
that it’s and it comes back to what we’ve seen earlier you know how do you show girls and boys about the options
that are there because because I think I think some of the challenges that we know we need to get more women into to
the tech sector and but equally we need to get more boys into there as well and
show them the full range of possibilities so showing them their role models and I think for for me in terms of because I
have a daughter she’s 13 um and actually I’m constantly trying to get her into coding it’s not working I
have to see it that’s gonna work who wants to do what the mom wants to do and why I say I’m like and I didn’t so possibly kind of a lost cause but I
think for girls it’s as much as on the role models but showing them that there are no limits
um as well as so letting them know that um it doesn’t matter if they’re a girl or boy for these kind of types of roles
um but most importantly just letting them have visibility of the rules because there are I I think there there
are so many amazing meals in the tech sector and I think they can be Role Models as well because I think it’s
showing kids today what the options are and showing that way for a variety of
them and and yeah hopefully showing them a balance of females on males but equally let’s let’s use the males that
are here in the sector as well because they’re they’re great the people they get meals in the sets are fantastic
yeah because I was going to ask you um actually next about what more can be
done to encourage more women into coding and I think you touched upon it there and just making sure and it’s not just
women into coding as you say just that people understand the role and what it’s about we had a lady on here uh um a few
weeks ago that we were talking about you know how did you get into technology and she said
um you know she hadn’t considered a career in in coding at all and she just happened to be at a careers fair and she
started talking to somebody and that was it it was just that visibility of somebody standing there and that has
done the role and just told her about it but you know unless unless you see people unless people come into your
school or your University how do you know what that role is going to be like
um you know unless it’s on TV and funny enough when it’s on TV it tends to be that nerdy stereotype that turns
everybody off yeah it does and and I think and there definitely is there’s a challenge I mean the the Tech sector has
and we have a huge skills shortage you know so there are far more jobs than there are people available so we need to
get as many people into Tech sets as possible I think there’s lots of work being done at schools and at
universities um and you know so many kind of programs and reason awareness and there’s much
more that can be done but I think you know it’s night and day compared to what it was 10 15 years ago but I think in
terms of thinking about the the skills shortage and also the opportunity therefore there are for people right now
we need people now you know so I do think when we think about how can we get more people uh more women into Tech I
think there’s a challenge to say about how do we get people that are in early to mid stages or even late stages of
their careers how do we get there show them what the options are show them that
there are um realistic and achievable and easy ways to make a switch into this career
and and also let them see that um you know we’ve got a skillshare shortage we
can fill those with new grads but equally we’ve got skill shortage through the whole pipeline you know so yeah
we’re short on senior team leads we’re short on Project managers so just
because you haven’t been working in Tech you know you can come in and take some of those skills and we’ve got gaps here
kind of for you that are ideal for you so it’s um the challenge is how do we get that message out there as widely um as
possible because that will um help us in the tech sector fill some of the gaps but equally because
um the tech sector there are so many gaps I mean the salaries are fantastic so there are real opportunities out
there for people to grab and really make a difference to their own personal lives as well yeah I was starting to find that
something that people outside attack don’t don’t realize as you said the salaries are great and the are you know
the travel is great and when you go to a conference nine times out of ten technology companies you know they don’t
put you up in a small B and B you know they always make sure that there’s you’re in a nice hotel and you have a
nice networking event and that I don’t think people realize probably the experience that that you get when you
work in technology yeah you do an exposure and the possibilities I mean my kids are forever saying oh have you been
their mom yet I have big Point as you go there we haven’t yeah I went there with work you know I’ve traveled the world
with work and really privileged to have done kind of that um yeah it’s
um I think also in today’s world as well you know um I’m really privileged to work in an
environment um that means I can take my kids to school every morning and I can pick them up from school um and I can be the CTO
of a multinational multi-billion Bank you know company do I mean so I can get
that work-life balance there and so so many of my friends that I see that that
can’t get that because they’re confined to an office they have to be you know they have to be there to do their kind
of job so I think there are particularly for for not just for women I think that
that’s true for males that want to come into the sector as well you know that there’s there’s the possibilities the experiences that you can get and the
ability to just move around and find the right fit for you but then also to have that work-life balance
um as well um and yeah get get paid well for it yeah yeah well that is a a nice positive
point to end on because we are already out of time um so thank you so much Francis for
coming in and chatting with us this morning it’s been an absolute pleasure no thank you for having me um and
hopefully maybe we’ll inspired just one even just one more person to move on to Gold would be good yes yes that would be
great um and to everybody listening as always thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time
